Mulugeta Wodajo

You go. Okay. We're back. It's, episode number 7, the big 7. Today's Sunday, April 25th.

We missed a week. But I think we're getting the hang of this, and, I think you, we left off you were sort of finishing up in Boston and making the move to New York, if I remember correctly. That that's right. We have just finished Harvard Mhmm. And, had now transferred to Colombia.

This is January 1958 now. Okay. Okay? Yeah. So, before I, talk about my days and education at Columbia, let let me just, by way of context, a few words about the period in general.

Mhmm. Remember this is the late 19 fifties. Mhmm. The Eisenhower years. Mhmm.

Good times economically, comfortable life for most of the Americans. Mhmm. A bit of isolationist conservative streak here and there. Mhmm. Remember also, they had just finished the or completed the McCarthy Era.

Era. So the fear of anti communists and and cold or euphoria is up in the air, but not very feasible at at the time, we arrived. Okay. This is also the I should have said last week, and I I just, by way of going back a little bit, I had witnessed the 1956 elections of Eisenhower versus Stevenson. Oh, yeah.

That that was important for, you know, somebody entering college. Right? Yeah. It was very interesting. It is a competition between a popular general who had ended the Korean war Yeah.

And an egghead Yeah. Intellectual Stevenson. Yeah. The university community, the students, and certainly myself, we were all for Stevenson. Yeah.

And I remember, but we're attending Raleigh at Harvard Square in, University Hall where, Stevenson came to to speak. Wow. That was very interesting. That's like that's like the Obama of his time. I mean, it wasn't the same environment, but I mean but, you know, the intellectuals love Obama.

I mean, he's one of them. Exactly. Exactly. During the period, I was at Harvard in Colombia. I know I'm you know, it's not very chronologically.

I'm going forward and backwards. But Yeah. I know I witnessed this 56 election, but also in 1960, 61 Yeah. I I wait I I was here. I was in the country during the election between, Kennedy Yeah.

And Nixon. When Yeah. When he when he when Nixon lost. Yeah. When Nixon lost?

Yeah. So the first time they televised to those, Oh, yeah. First time out debates. Exactly. Yeah.

So at that time, I I was I was, had finished my studies and was at, the State University of New York. And I remember the speech, very, very clearly when, the inauguration speech in January when, among other things, Kennedy said think not what you can what your country Yeah. Can do for you, but what you can do for your country. And with Robert Frost, the poet, next to him. And I remember saying, hearing this and going to class and telling my students that you would know this statement.

Really? Yeah. I I mean, it struck me very, very much. Anyway So we're back. Okay.

So I was just giving you the background by way of a context before I started my years at Tischoff's College, Columbia University. I mentioned the 2 elections. And also, I just want to say that this was also a period of when of anti colonialism, the struggle of the many, many African countries, during the last bit of the colonial era. In 1960, just in 1 year, 16 countries gained their independence. Wow.

Benin, Burkina Faso, Chad, Ivory Coast, Nigeria, a whole lot of them. Yes. What used to be, what was used to be referred to as, French Equatorial Africa and French tropical Africa, You know, just on the map, you know, you only saw French tropical Africa or French equatorial Africa. Yeah. Now these were carved into specific countries, and and that was great.

You know? All these Burkina Faso's and and Benin's and so forth were part of 1 or the other. So, a lot of, So I didn't know that actually. So, I mean, even though I mean, I I assume maybe Nigeria had borders. I mean, so a lot of the countries actually did not get independence but actually were created.

Particularly the in the French area. I didn't know that. The colonial in French area. I mean, we never heard of any of these countries before. I mean, they were as I said, one were in crossing studying geography or even in most maps, they were indicated just as, French tropical Africa or French equatorial Africa.

Wow. But the English ones, I mean, like, Ghana, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, these we knew at least. Ghana was called the Gold Coast, of course. Yeah. But at least we knew the boundaries.

Yeah. But the French ones, no. Yeah. I mean, it was I never knew that. Yeah.

And, during this, anti colonial struggle, Ethiopia played a key role because it was just about the only country in the United Nations, apart from Liberia. And Ethiopian delegation was the kind of advocates for the independence of these countries. So lots of delegations would come to the UN to give testimony to the decolonization committee. Yes. I had friends in the on that committee, Ethiopian friends on that committee.

And, so when I later on, I will mention it, when I later on, when I started to teach at State University of New York in at NUPALS, you know, this came in handy because I could invite some of these freedom fighters to my class, and they would come and Wow. And talk to my students, you know, people from Rhodesia in those days. It was called Rhodesia Yeah. Zimbabwe and Zambia or Nasaland, which became Malawi, South Africa. All of this, and I had friends from those countries who would come to my class and give a lecture.

And this was a big thing for the college as well as for my classes, of course. Yeah. Kefliya was also part of many of these delegations, and later on, he becomes deputy head of the Ethiopian mission to the UN. So that came in very handy. So so in the in the UN, that was the Ethiopia was the only other sub Saharan country.

Is that is that what you mean aside from Liberia? Exact exactly. From I never I mean, of course. I mean, that's obvious because everything else is a colony that I never thought about. I mean, the UN existed for, what, almost 20 years at that point.

Right? I mean, or 15 years at least with only one real African country. I mean, Liberia, I mean, we can we can we can pay some respect too, but, you know, that's a little different. Yeah. That that that's true.

A little later on at towards the end of fifties the fifties, Sudan became independent. Yeah. Okay? And, Ghana gained its independence in 57. It was the first one.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. 5057 or 50? 57 as I remember.

57. Yeah. Yeah. Otherwise, all the others were in 1960. As I said, 16 countries got their independence in just that one guy.

1 year. 1 year. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing time.

I mean, you know, and so did that play a role in your life? I mean I mean, before between you know, you're somewhere between just being black and, I guess, alien, and now at least you're representing, you know, kind of a famous country. Well, it it changed, the climate quite a lot. I mean, it helped me get a job for one thing. I mean, when I joined the church at a state university in, you know, this was a big thing.

I mean, the decolonization and the gaining of independence for the African countries was a big thing. So that college started a course to introduce students to, to what they call non western cultures. Oh, wow. In the sixties. Yeah.

Yeah. And I was hired specifically to head the unit that, gave courses or classes rather, class lectures on the African independence movement and the coming of these countries into independence. Wow. In addition to that, I thought sociology and stuff, but, it changed quite a bit. I mean, the climate, the, yeah, it changed quite a bit.

I mean, is that is that I mean, I I I assume that at the time, it was very exciting. But coming out of Ethiopia, I mean, you weren't, you know, so you didn't associate yourself with the revolutionary movements. I mean, you were kind of a patriotic Ethiopian. Right? I mean, it wasn't a question of of independence.

That's true. This is quite you're quite true. I mean, we didn't share many of their experiences. Yeah. But, as students, we met some of them, you know, before the independence and but when they became independent, you know, we kind of instinctively became one of them, so to say.

For instance, when Ghana got its independence, we meaning the Ethiopian students. In fact, I was president of the African Students Union, in New York at that time. We organized a big party for them. And mayor Wagner, the Robert Wagner was the mayor of New York. He allowed us to use the city hall for for the party.

Wow. And the ambassador the Ethiopian ambassador to the UN, helped us get, to buy other beverages, whiskey and Scotch and whatever. You know? And, UN, it's very tax free, duty free. So we had a big party and, we were very much part of the you know?

And so we celebrated it that way. Which what event was that? That was the Ghana or was that? Ghana. Oh, okay.

In 57. Wow. So you're a you're a president of African Students Union of the city or of Columbia? I mean, what is that? I was president of the African Students Union in North America.

It's even bigger. It's bigger. No. No. Sorry.

No. No. That's no. No. I was president of the Ethiopian Stents in North North America.

Okay. But but for the Africans, it was just for New York. So you had 2 titles? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. So, yeah. That's great. So the so you got, cheap liquor. That's it.

That's gonna make you very popular president. So it was quite a quite a big party. The in those days, you know, there was a tension between Nigeria and Ghana Mhmm. For leadership of the African students I understand. Generally of African affairs in in Africa, whether it's at the UN.

So at least with the students, in regard to the students, whenever there was a a deadlock between a Ghanaian student and a and a Nigerian student, they would take an Ethiopian as a dark hot candidate. I think that's how I got to be selected or elected to be, president of the Yeah. America. Because I had just arrived in New York, and I wasn't all that well known. So I take it, it's it's their deadlock situation that allowed me to become president.

Oh, wow. I mean, is this a micro cause? How do the same way the the African Union ended up in Addis Ababa. Right? Yeah.

Exactly. They couldn't agree among themselves. There was so much, yeah, history. Yeah. Rivalry between them going back many, many years, many, many decades.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've ended up, but they could pick somebody else. Right? So you can still take the credit.

I mean Right. Okay. So this was a period of the, anti colonial. And I also managed to, listen to some of the discussions in the United Nations sitting in the public gallery of the UN. Wow.

Okay. I remember Andy and Manasseh and myself, we would go there and listen. In fact, Manasseh was doing part time job, as a radio announcer for the United Nations. Sure. The Amharic program of the United Nations, he was the one who would, you know, translate whatever was given to him and, and and and and transmit it to Ethiopia.

And, he would need 2 or 3 persons to help him. Like Juanino, he would read, the the main things. You know? And the United Nations need this, that, and the other. Or, and then when it comes to say and at this time, the, American ambassador so and so said that one of us are going.

You know, we we became actors in that drama. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. So I would take somebody would take the role of the Russian.

So between Andy, myself, and then another guy called Hamid Yeah. We covered most of the That's what it is. It's like a radio drama. This is great. Yeah.

It is. Yeah. So we would transmit once a week. On Tuesday afternoons, we would go to the UN radio department, mass media departments and do that. So we want you know, even if it's on the periphery by watching the public galleries and, and, participating in this I mean, you know, the in these radio broadcasts.

Yeah. We are somewhat involved even if peripherally, as I said. Anyways Yeah. Either way, you're the only Ethiopians around. I mean, right?

I mean, there's not, I mean, it's a small community. I mean, there's a there's one, you know, delegation from Africa and, you know, people in the gallery. I mean, that's it. Exactly. Okay.

This was a period of, as I said, decolonization. It was also the period of the civil rights movement in the United States, the late fifties early sixties. So we witnessed that. I remember also there participating in, sit downs at, at, Woolworths, in on Broadway in 100 and Street. Yeah.

There was a a a Safeway not Safeway. A a Woolworth store on Broadway just across almost across from Columbia University. That particular store did not discriminate. I mean, did not, forbid current people to eat or black people to sit there on on the counter or anything. But it was the demonstration against the whole chain.

So most of these Yeah. Most of the world's still stores that did this were in the south. Yeah. But the but the the movement was against the whole chain. So we did the we we participated in the boycotting and and and sit down strikes against the local Woodworth store.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, that's actually it sounds silly, but I'm I would imagine it's actually very effective because they're actually losing business. Yes. Right? I mean, the ones in the South didn't I mean, they didn't want the blacks anyway.

Yeah. But isn't there a famous what's the famous Woolworth sit down, though? I mean, isn't there Woolworth there's a Woolworth story. I mean, they're just like Rosa Parks and their bus. There's also a Woolworth.

Yeah. In the south in the south, I believe. I forget exactly the details. Yes. So there is a story.

But in the north of Woolworth, as I said, it was more symbolic than real. I mean, you know, it was part of the chain. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So did there did did the other Africans also participate? I mean, was there Africans and black Oh, yeah. Together? No. No.

No. Black Americans were the main ones. Yeah. They're the ones who do who took the most lead, particularly the black Muslims. Oh, yeah.

Talk about them in a little while. Yeah. But, Yeah. We were just, hard ons, so to say. I mean, you know, if start with the blacks Yeah.

Black Americans and black I mean, Africans. That's what I'm saying. So it's all Africans. It wasn't just Ethiopians. Yeah.

Oh, no. So I mean, there is a moment of, you know, true unity. Right? I mean, there's a lot of speech and I mean, there but there, you're actually, you know, demonstrated together. It's not that doesn't happen that often with the rest of Africa.

That's right. I should add here that, you remember when we talked about Harvard, I said the foreign student the student the the office of foreign affairs foreign students office Yeah. Was our main, home away from home. Yeah. Here in New York, it was the international house.

Okay. There there is a new place called international house. I don't know if you visited it. It's a big structure on 500 Riverside Drive. It's a the building and all the property was given to the international house movement to buy the Rockefeller family.

I understand. So it it it had, you know, it was big enough to have, rooms. People would stay there over you know, I mean, rent rooms there. It had meals. It would give concerts and and the nice room where we could listen to classical for all practical purposes, our student center.

And that's where, you know, we'd make, friends and meet friends and Was it it was Colombia or it was independent? For no. No. It had, it's for all foreign students. In the city?

I mean, it's just anybody can come? Yeah. You know, there were these international houses, in in in a number of places in America. I remember the one in Chicago which I had visited. I remember the there is one also in Cambridge, Massachusetts, but it was a much smaller affair.

It was a much smaller no rooms or no meals. But the one in New York was a big one. So it was more or less a movement, I think. I don't know who much about it. But, yeah.

I mean, somebody paid for it. That's very interesting. I mean, that's yeah. Yeah. I know the war in New York was, you know, there was a plaque that said donated or given by the rocket phone.

Yeah. Yeah. So that came in very handy. So that's place we visit frequently. How many just a just as a rough idea Yeah.

How many, you know, black or whatever, just say African students were there? I mean, how many peep I mean, is that in the 25, you know, 55100? I mean, what kind of No. No. In the twenties, I would say.

Oh my god. Really? Yeah. Twenties. 25.

Yeah. We knew each other. Yeah. Of course. The 25.

I mean, so that's and that's probably the the bulk of the city. Right? I mean, there are probably not many people you didn't know if especially if there was a place like the International House and these kids had nowhere else to go. That's right. They would come there.

Yeah. But but in addition to the Africans, you know, there would be lots of Latin Americans. Yeah. Of course. Yes.

Of those from Asia, and lots of those from the Arab countries, particularly Iran. Mhmm. So it was a truly international. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

So I just mentioned the international laws as a, as I said, home away from home. Yeah. Also, by way of a background, I, you know, as I said, I was the president of the African Students Union in in in in New York. And one of the things we did there was, I think there was in 1959, I don't know if you've read about it, but there was this massacre of about 69. Yeah.

69 blacks in South Africa. As in a in a town called Sharpville. The Sharpville massacre. Yeah. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. Barely. But yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No. It's no. No. This was in March 1960.

Uh-huh. The the Sharpeel incident occurred in March 1960. Yeah. I was still in New York. I hadn't gone yet to, teach.

So I I I as I said, I had been president since 59, and we organized a demonstration Mhmm. To march, from you can you can guess from the international house down Broadway all the way to the South African mission to the United Nations. Wow. And then from there to the to, the United Nations itself. That's a long way.

Yeah. We had planned to carry a a casket wrapped in black, but we were not allowed. The police would came to our, to my apartment. You know? We had to register to the route, to which route we're taking, who was the president.

You know, the we have to go and and and register this at the police station. So on the basis of our registration, they came to my apartment Wow. And, told us that we cannot carry that coffin. And then we have to tell them the route which they registered. They make sure that we're not carrying any bombs or any fire.

Yeah. Go ahead. But the interesting thing there is that, of course, that we we demonstrated. But more importantly, at least more significantly, the the blacks that joined us in this March, the Africans, most of them came from New York, NYU, New York University as well as Columbia. But from the blacks, although it sent flyers all over Harlem, the ones that came in park were the black mergers.

Wow. Wow. Aided by Malcolm x himself. Wow. Wow.

Wow. Yeah. So Malcolm x and I, he representing the blacks, me representing the African students, or, standing hand in hand carrying placard. And we had I had I had that picture with me for many, many years, but I left it in Ethiopia when I came to the to North America. But he he would he came with his with his large number of, black Muslims that, and live in our but, incidentally, I should say that, I came to know Markham Hicks, reasonably well.

We used to, go to, an Indian restaurant on 125th and and then Broadway. Okay. Yeah. And and stay there until 12 in the wee hours of the night, you know, 12, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock, discussing all kinds of things. And he impressed me as a very, intelligent, well read person.

So I asked him how, you know, we knew I read somewhere that he had not gone to school. You know, barely finished high school. So he said he what what he did during his many years in jail, you know, was was read. So it's extremely well read. He was very bitter.

You would call the whites, the blue eyed devils or something like that. So that was a bit difficult for us to digest. Yeah. But, he was quite informed, and he was very eager to learn about Africa. So we told him as much as we could.

When I said we, I mean, it was mostly myself and 1 or 2 other Ethiopians, who would sit down with him and in that Indian restaurant, which it was Indian restaurant, but run by a Pakistani. Okay. A Muslim Pakistani. So Okay. That's that made it okay.

Yeah. And that was the affiliation with the Yeah. Yeah. Did you at that time I mean, this is what? The sixties.

He he died 65? When did he die? When was he killed? I had already returned to him. I think, yeah, 64, 65, something like that.

Yeah. I mean I mean, now I don't know. I mean, of course, now, you know, he's remembered sort of, you know, proposing violence and, you know, as opposed to the rest not. And I'm I'm sure some of that was said. But, I mean, was there kind of an aura of danger around him?

Or, I mean No. I mean, you were sitting there at an Indian restaurant looking around or no? He was just, no. No. I I repeatedly queried him about his intentions, and his intentions were quite, peaceful.

I mean, he was trying to get the blacks to become Muslim where the blacks you know, that were owned by the black Muslim movement. And they were well dressed, you know, I mean, the men and the women. And the the story that, were told in those days was that these black Muslims, because they didn't drink and, you know, they were very they're good have good work ethics. They were easily hired by the big banks and so forth. They wouldn't miss Monday morning as many blacks would miss because they they didn't get drunk over the weekend.

Yeah. I knew I mean, as I said, he did have these anti white feelings, but I didn't see any of that being translated into violence. No. Not certainly, not, in 1960. That's when I'm talking about 59 60.

Yeah. But, I mean, but it did I don't, you know, I don't even know his story well enough, but, I mean, was the, you know, label of violence put on him? Or, I mean or was he, you know, overtly saying things, you know, that you recall? I mean, obviously, he was killed. You know?

That's violent. But towards the end, I think, you know, after a while, I I I the story is a little bit fuzzy in my mind too. Yeah. But by then, I had returned home. But I know he fell, from, the the the leader of Black Muslim Movement, Elijah Muhammad.

Yeah. They didn't get along well afterwards. So, I think by then, he was becoming more and more radical. He went to visit, Muslim countries, Saudi Arabia and so forth, and he started to compare notes. And then he got radicalized, but but not when I knew him, he was radical in the sense that he was very much anti white Yeah.

But not, violence. I didn't see much violence, talking. Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah.

And you were there. I mean, you know, now, of course, you know, anybody that is you know, espouses, strength or power, you know, with Islam, and at the same time, right, is tainted. Right? So it's very hard now from this perspective to look at. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, another, speaking of these famous people I I got to know during this, you know, period. I'm being a little bit inquiring jumping from one topic to another, but was W. E. B.

Du Bois. You met Du Bois? Did I know that? Yes. I met Du Bois.

I could I used to collect his books, Phil. Phil. Yeah. All I had most of his books, virtually a complete set of his books. The souls of Black Folk, the Philadelphia Negro, black reconstruction, the souls of black folk.

Many of those books. So I used to take these books, and they were very expensive for for a student. Now take the train. I think it was the a train or whichever train that went to Brooklyn. He used to live in Brooklyn.

So I used to go there and have him, autograph those books for me, and he went very happily. So I I I had quite a few collection in Ethiopia and Oh my gosh. I left Yeah. But yeah. So that's one of the things that, I miss the most when I came here.

Yeah. I wish I had brought them with me. So yeah. In fact, I first met Du Bois when the Ethiopian no. No.

The African Students Union meeting in Chicago in around 1958 or 57 or 58, shortly after we had arrived in in America. I was not an officer of the African Students Union at that time. They had invited him as the keynote speaker. Mhmm. And and the and the get the meeting took place in Chicago.

I I remember him coming to our meeting and the other the main speaker and and advising us, you know, you make sure you follow what what's going on in China. There's a lot for you Africans to learn from China. I remember him saying that, and those words, you know, stayed in my mind for years to, you know, yeah. What did he mean by that? In what sense?

I mean Well, because the communists were in power, obviously. I mean, what what was he talking about? Well, he himself was very much of a socialist as you know. In fact, you his part was was taken away from him later on, and he espoused communism. And he died in Ghana, because, you know, they wouldn't, let him come back here.

Anyways, but I think he meant that this was an underdeveloped country, a rural pastoral country, agricultural country, and it's transforming itself into an industrial country, and that's the pattern for Africans to follow. Mhmm. That I think that yeah. That's interesting. You're right.

I mean, I I we don't no. I mean, the the story hasn't changed. Right? I mean, 50 years later, you know, Africa I mean, what China has done I mean, everybody wants to do. I mean, in not least Africa.

Yeah. With the Europeans, you know, because of their anti colonial, history and also because they're European and, well developed. Yes, there is a lot to learn, but, more so from China according to him, I think, if I read him. Right? Yeah.

Because it is in the process of changing and in the process of of industrializing. The industrial revolution for him, as as you saw, it was yet to come for China. Yeah. So he was making a a comparison with the level of development in Africa and saying that, you know, you're nearer to China. Hence, there is more to learn from China.

Yeah. That that kind of argument. That's how I interpreted it at this time. That makes sense. So the other interesting thing there that you just mentioned, though, is that you're going from New York to Chicago for the African Student Union meeting.

So, I mean, you guys I mean, obviously, you had, you know, limited funds, but it was important enough to go, you know, in this way in this case, halfway across the country to meet, right? What few other students there were. Right? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's it's good of you to, notice that, you know.

In those days, it was a big thing to meet another last Ethiopian. We were so few of us. Yeah. And, the reason I went to Chicago, I took the ground Greyhound bus. Mhmm.

It took, oh, it took hours. Almost, what? Over 10 hour or 15, 60. I forget how many is this top drive. Yeah.

Yeah. It was we went through upstate New York, Rochester, Chicago. The reason was, we had made an appointment with Kifley and Takahling who are at the time in, Wisconsin and Illinois respect respectively. And we had agreed to meet in Chicago. Okay.

That's good. Yeah. For for was it Christmas or Easter? I forget one of the, holidays. So that's why I went there in the first instance.

And while I was there, of course, attended the meeting there. But, yeah. That's very nice. So you met Du Bois there and then he and you maintained I mean, I mean, at the at the meeting, you just went up and talked to him, I guess. Well, with lots of students, you know, after the with the meeting, we surrounded him, and he was just talking and so forth, but I didn't get to know him.

I first met him there, but I didn't get to know him as well as I did when, he was living in Brooklyn, and I was going there to get my books, autograph. Yeah. Then we would talk a little bit, you know, not much. He was already old and frail. Yeah.

His wife, she was a white woman. Mhmm. She accompanied him to exile in Ghana. Mhmm. We talked a little bit, not much.

But later on, I also bought in those days, they had, they didn't have these recordings like you're doing now. So his his his life and story were recorded in an LPs, you know, long playing Wow. Yeah. Records. Yeah.

And you would talk about his life, what he did from the very beginning. And I had about, what, 2 or 3 sets of those that I took to Ethiopia and, but, you know, they're lost there. Yeah. So he I didn't know that. So that's his autobiography was sort of a spoken story?

Well, somebody not yeah. No. No. He he had written his autobiography later, but there was this autobiography of his on on record on on a an LP. Yeah.

Which I which I both I'm trying to say, you know, but they there must have been also both. I don't know if there was a book, but certainly, Artiom is a sort of yeah. That that that existed. I I I should I don't think we mentioned here. You know?

You've heard, of course, of the rivalry between W. E. B. Du Bois and, Booker t. Booker t Washington.

Yeah. I mean, without any hesitation, I was very much of a Du Bois fan, not so much of a of a Yeah. Of Booker T Washington. Mhmm. Yeah.

Okay. I'll I'll stop you right now, Du Bois. But just to by way of, just just to add another key person I mean, another famous person I got to meet in those day in those years was was Malcolm X. Not Malcolm X. I've I've already mentioned Malcolm X.

Martin Luther King. Wow. I guess, like, Forrest Gump here. Martin Luther King had had just completed his PhD at BU, Boston University Uh-huh. When we arrived, at at the Harvard.

So and and the place where and one of the friends we had was a black, black student at Harvard. He would take us to BU across the river to the chapel there, to the BU chapel, where Martin Luther King, would be giving sermons. You know? Wow. Often, he wasn't the main he wasn't the main, pastor, but he was he had just he was just starting his career.

You know? He he had gotten his page there as I said last summer, summer of 56. We arrived there in September of 50 6, 2 months earlier 2 months later. Oh. So we, got to listen to him.

We didn't get to know him personally, but at least, we came close enough to know him. Yeah. I mean, was he that's I mean, is that isn't that unusual? I mean, he was just one of many divinity students. They all rotated as, the preachers or No.

They had just hired him as a deputy pass as as a deputy pastor or, I don't know exact title of his but later on, of course, I mean, he formed his own church. Yeah. Yeah. And left BU, but I'm in Boston. But at that time, he was still in BU at BU.

Do you remember his sermons at all? I mean, was he I mean, was he was an amazing, you know, speaker. He was very good speaker. Very, yeah, Rob I was a kind of speaker, but, not really. And to tell you frankly, I mean, I didn't we didn't appreciate what who Martin Luther King was at that time.

You know? He he himself. He was just gotten his doctorate. I mean, probably this black friend of ours knew where this guy was heading and what his background was. But, we didn't know much about him, so it wasn't a big deal for us to get to know him.

Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think at the time. Now, you know, in retrospect, you know, I I say all these things. Yeah.

Well, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well Well, I have to say so far, it sounds like you have a lot more free time than you did in Ethiopia. Yeah.

This period was also the time when I'm still giving biofu the context. This was the time when the 1962 took place in Ethiopia. Oh, yeah. Now I had no role, of course. You know, I was but I was Noted.

I'll write that down. Okay, Hassain. Yeah. No. I was at Newport Teaching State University.

And in fact, at the time I heard the news about the, Emperor Valle Dziaslasse being overthrown, I was digging my car out of the snow. You know, it was it was we had a big snowstorm, in upstate New York, and the car was completely covered by snow. And I was trying to get the snow removing the snow from the car, and I had the radio on. Oh my god. I just couldn't hear.

I couldn't. And, you know, it I mean, it was a shock. It left an indelible mark on the person of the emperor. He was no longer the virtuous immortal father that we all knew about. So they were talking about all kinds of things about him, and it was just like a dream.

I just couldn't believe it. So, this place I thought, New Paltz. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's spelled p a l t z, Newports. It's just, across the Hudson from, West Point.

Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Okay. I I never knew where it was. Okay.

Yeah. It's across the I knew it's upstate, but I didn't know where it was. No. It was 75 miles north of north of, the city. Of New York?

North of the city of New York. Okay. It's not that far. Okay. So it's about halfway to Albany or about right or no?

Yes. About half halfway to Albany. Okay. One and a half hours by car from New York. And I had a car, so I every weekend, I would go to New York.

So in fact, as soon as I heard that news, I think it was a weekend or Friday or something like that. You know, I drove down to New York. Being September no. It was December December, 1960, the there was a large Ethiopian delegation that had come to the United Nations for the general assembly meeting. So I went there and, mingled with them and tried to find as much as possible, but they too didn't know much.

So we were all, you know, gossiping and and making all kinds of, saying what's going on. Just very concerned concerned. But I must say that the large segment of the educated people who are in favor of, you know I mean, not that they not that they didn't like the emperor, but they wanted the reforms. They wanted the modernization. And, for the 3 days that it it lasted, 3 or 4 days it lasted, we've had lots of converts from the Ethiopians, in in, in in in the in overseas.

Wait. What do you mean? It had a lot of comp what do you mean by that? It's it's had lots of support. I mean, the coup.

Really? I didn't know that. Oh, yeah. It was very popular, but it was ill planned, unplanned, in fact. Yeah.

So it is crumbled within 3 or 4 days, but not much was done by way of the foreign student I mean, the students overseas. There was in fact, someone sent a telegram among the Ethiopian students to the good leaders congratulating them Wow. And signed as president of the Ethiopian Unions, which was me. Oh. So this, brought up a little bit of a problem for me later on.

I was in I was in America, so it didn't matter. But, luckily, the persons, among the persons who are at the United Nations General Assembly in New York, with whom I intermingled, as I said, having driven down from, Naples, I mean, he knew how I faced and so forth and so on. And he was appointed minister of foreign affairs. This is Mikhail Rasemru's son, Imru Mikhail Imru. Mhmm.

And, he vouched for my innocence and, it didn't it didn't affect my career at all. Oh my god. But somebody Yeah. But that that would it didn't affect your career because you were in in in, in the US. I mean, you know, if you're in Addis Ababa, you'd been in jail.

Yeah. Except, as I said, because this man, was there and he became minister. So, yeah, could be. I think I said that on one of the sessions that, the students from the university college had gone out in favor of the coup the coup. But later on, they were excused on the ground that, they were forced to come out.

You know? I was I was I wasn't there. I'm sorry. Yeah. So when during the coup, I mean, all of a sudden, there was people said that we need reforms that that had said nothing before or there's there was some talk which became louder?

Well, there might have been grumblings underground, you know, I mean, under the lair, but nobody would have said it out loud, and, certainly, nobody would have thought of, getting rid of the emperor. Yeah. I mean, I don't know how much of the story you know, but at that time, the emperor was on a visit to Brazil when he Overseas. Yeah. Yeah.

He was in he was on his he was in Brazil, and he hurried back and, first landed in, Asmara. And then, as soon as he they knew that he was in Asmara, the, you know, the coup kind of, melted the downed, melted away. Mhmm. And also there was no coordination within the imperial guard, which was the leader of the coup, who are leading the corps, and the army. They didn't talk.

I mean, what I mean, what later on we what we learned later on was that they were, this they were telling the army people that they were, trying to, get rid of people who are against the emperor while they were they themselves were doing that. So, you know, it was all mixed up. Mhmm. Yeah. Anyway, I think we can talk about the coordinator on or in in another form, but, many books are written now, so we don't have to dwell with it.

And I had no in it in any event. Yeah. Yeah. One last item in terms of, the period. This was also the time when I met, my future wife, Yeshi.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I have the pictures. We have the pictures on that thing. Yeah. Yeah. I had met her, in fact, in Washington Mhmm.

In the summer of 1961. I had come down to Washington to, read a paper to the Ethiopian Students Union. I was the president then. I think I told you already. Yeah.

I had come down to to to give a lecture to I mean, a paper to on education on Ethiopian education to the students you're meeting at that hour. And she and the city were there, had just come had just arrived from Ethiopia. Oh, wow. Okay. And they were in Washington also and also at Howard for, orientation by, the USAID people.

So when they heard about this Ethiopian Students Meeting, they both came to the meeting. Akilu Nama was there also. So Akilu met his wife as I did at that meeting. I was reading the paper. Yeah.

And that paper later on was published by Howard Invest Itself as part of their they had an issue. The Howard used to publish, I don't know if they still do, a journal called Journal of Negro Education. Uh-huh. And one of the issues, I think the one, that came, in the fall in 1962, I think, a year later or something like that. Mhmm.

And it was devoted to, African education. So they invited various persons to write their chapters on different countries. And I was invited to write, this this chapter on Ethiopia. Mhmm. Okay.

And what I did was I I took my the paper handwritten at that meeting, you know, and, spiced it up, put in a little bit more fat in it, and Yeah. And sent it to them, and sure enough, it was published. That's academics. Yes. That's end.

Yeah. So what so how did you guys meet then? I mean, the is or is that we we met in in summer 1961. As I said, actually, it was there. I was there.

And, we continued our, at least I continue solidly, actually, Luke, our courtship for 2 more years. Yeah. So in 1963, oh, no. Be between 19611960 3, she came to New York. I went to her university in, Indiana.

Mhmm. What was the name of the place? Evan no. Not Evanston. University of Indiana?

No. It's Bloomington. Yeah. Bloomington. Yeah.

I went to Bloomington once, and she came to New York at another time. I think in the in in between 1961 1963. So, you know, there are this courtship. And and in 1960 3, maybe I'll come back to it later on. I had been invited to teach a summer course at Syracuse University.

Mhmm. And, to and, Yeshia had completed her work her work for the master's degree at Indiana. She was missing one paper, one course rather. One course. And she arranged for that one course to be taken.

She arranged it to their professor and the university to take that one course at Syracuse. So she came to Syracuse, and we stayed the summer together. And we flew back to Ethiopia in 1963, you know, the at the end of the summer session. Sometime in September, we flew back to Ethiopia. And that was it.

I mean, you know, we got married in a year later in 1964. But there was this courtship period between 1961 and 1960 3 when we visited each other. So wait. So in that so in the in the chronology Mhmm. You're at the end of the summer, where you taught at Syracuse and she finished her masters Yeah.

You both had finished your American tour? I mean, that was the end? You said we flew back? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. 63. By then, I no. As I said, I was jumping, so it wasn't very coherent. But by summer of 1963, I had already stayed 3 years at NUPORSE, at the state university.

I had earned my PhD. And we'll come back to you on how I got to be appointed there to to how I got to be appoint to be appointed to to teach in Ethiopia. Yeah. But it's not the final summary in my in America for me and for her. So just to go back to 1963, you arrived when was it?

1957? I think I have to go back to my last set of notes. You're 56. We came to I came to America in 56 and, and and returned in 63, 7 years. That's a long time.

I didn't I didn't know that. I guess you're right. That is yeah. That sounds about right, but it seems like a long time, especially because it's so eventful. Yeah.

But also, you know, the the 3 of the years I was teaching while I was writing my dissertation, I should have mentioned. Yeah. That sounds like double time. Yeah. Yeah.

I was writing my dissertation while I was at Newport's, but I think I'll come back to it in a little while about that, when I talk about my Newport's years. Yeah. And and, yes, she had come in 1961. You know, when I went to that, students union meeting in at Howard, that was her first month, first time in America. Oh my gosh.

Yeah. And for her orientation, as I said. Yeah. And, at the end of the summer of 61, she went to Bloomington, and the city went to Colorado, Colorado, not Boulder Dam. Is there is there a place called Boulder or something?

Yeah. You there's a University of Colorado in Boulder. Yeah. She went there and yeah. Yeah.

So yeah. That's the chronology. That's amazing. So much happened in such a little time. I mean Yeah.

I mean, you know, I mean, very politically charged. I mean, in even in your life, I mean, I think, I don't know. Now it seems for us that, you know, we still go through the motions of school, graduate school, and such. It doesn't seem quite as eventful, but maybe maybe it will one day. Yeah.

When you stop to think about it and start, Konya, you'll you'll be surprised how much happened and how fast. Well, this was my way of background. You know? Yeah. In terms of my, education and, what I was actually doing.

I mean, I was doing something there as well. Yeah. But, the first question is, how I transfer from Harvard to Colombia? You remember I had finished that? Yeah.

You said, well, talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. I finished my master's degree in, 57. Got our master's degree, all 4 of us.

And then, yeah, I remember I was trying we were trying to get to to have our PhD, but government stopped our scholarship. So we went to get, jobs. You you the kinds of jobs. I mentioned that. Yeah.

So by the end of 1957 or beginning of 58, really, in January 58, all of us moved in all 4 of us. No. 3 of the 4 of us moved. I think I mentioned that in the previous thing. So the question is how come you move to from Harvard to Colombia?

You know? Well, the short answer is that in those in that particular area of education, in, the social and philosophical foundations, Columbia's Teachers College was the place. It was the birthplace of the so called progressive movement in education. Progressive movement, meaning the school that preach, learn by doing, and learn by doing. It was the home of great educator, John Dewey.

I don't know if you have ever heard of it. I've heard but the Dewey name is in many different places. He was also a governor. I mean, there's a lot of Dewey's. Right?

No. No. No. No. That's another Yeah.

No. Yeah. John yeah. John Dewey was a great, philosopher and educator. There's a stamp now for him.

There's a 30 something¢ stamp. I mean, so Dewey the Dewey decimal system? No. No. That's another Dewey, because he just had a stamp too, I thought, or something because it Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I don't know. Something his name came up again. But, anyway, so John Dewey. Sorry.

Yeah. Yeah. That was the home of John Dewey. That, I mean, John Dewey is the guy who wrote, a lot of books, democracy and education, experience and education. Dewey movement.

Yeah. And and talking about the Dewey movement. Yeah. And and this, so called progressive movement in education is a direct descendant of the empirical schools of philosophical thought or about each we have learned about about it, about what which we have learned when we are at at Harvard. So the empiricists were those who would, let's say that unless you can touch it and, you know, it it it you know, they wanted empirical evidence for for everything.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm it was considered, sort of the make and medina of American education. I mean, you had to go to TC, Columbia to really get a name for, yourself if you are to come to proceed in in education. Wow.

So, I went there and registered in the history and philosophy. The department of historical and foundation historical and philosophical foundation of education, and and and comparative education, the same that I had at at Harvard at Harvard. And at that time, the professors at TC, teaches college, were the successors of John Dewey. Mhmm. I mean, his students, really.

So it was a great honor to really have those I'm not still, cherish the fact that I had my education and had my degrees, PhD degree committee, manned by the direct descendants and students of John Moody. People like, I can mention r Freeman Butts, b u t t s, Freeman. Initial r? Initial is r Freeman, but he's written books after books on, history and philosophy of education. A guy called Lawrence Cremin, c r e m I n, and, and George Beready, b e r e a d y, Beready.

George Beready, in fact, is a Polish emigre. So these Polish people are always back. But, he was American, American naturalized American. He was, in fact, he founded the comparative education society, of which I became one of the first members and to which I wrote an article for, in fact, the second issue of the comparative education review, content article had written for, on Ethiopian education, which really, I mean, and I must confess, was a term work, a 3rd paper I had written for a parody, which was embellished and improved and and published. Because he was the editor as well as my professor.

Well, I mean, nothing nothing changes. Yes. You have to make make the right contacts and learn to recycle. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And that paper was published in February of 59. So it was, February no. It couldn't. Yeah.

February 59 because I had arrived in Colombia, January 58. So a year later. Yeah. Mhmm. In fact, also, I should mention that I eventually became a t technical teacher assistant for, Veriday as well as, for our Freeman bus.

So, So as as a graduate student. No. No. No. As a graduate student.

Yeah. Yeah. No. As a PhD candidate, I had already gotten my master's degree. You remember?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was at the yeah. As a graduate students.

Among the things that was notable in those years at Teachers College was they had a very large summer school. I mean, the school at teacher's college, the education school at teacher's college was, I don't know, easily 5, 6, 7 times larger than the one at at Harvard. Wow. Okay. We're talking about here, 2, 3000 students just in one school of the Graduate School of Education, which was called Tisha's College.

Tisha's College was semi autonomous, body at the school, attached to Columbia University. I shouldn't say attached, but, it's it's part of Columbia University, but it had on certain things, its own you know, it had its own president, for instance. I just And it, and there are certain things. It had some kind of an autonomy, but it was part of the Colombia. We got our degrees in the same graduation ceremony as as as Colombia.

Our degrees are signed by the same president of Colombia University and so forth and so. But it had some kind of autonomy, a little bit of an autonomy because it has its own president, and it raised money and so forth. Anyway, one of the significant events of, officials of Columbia University in those years was that it had a large summer school. And that summer school was attended by, southern teachers, for blacks or Really? Yeah.

Because So so so the summer school is for teachers? For yeah. Well, the whole the whole teacher's college is for teachers. Yeah. And I would because some colleges have under like, high school.

You know what I mean? Like, they have No. No. Yeah. So if I mean, like, you know, UC has a fame University of Chicago has a famous, you know, high school.

Right? I mean, where they actually sort of teach. Or the lab school. Yeah. Lab school.

Exactly. But this is a this is a teacher's college summer school. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that school, the lab school at Chicago was started by John Blue himself.

Yeah. Before he came to Teachers College, he was at Chicago. Wow. Yeah. So I'm glad you mentioned it here.

Yeah. It's a big Well, these teachers who came from the South were those that couldn't get admitted, you know, because of this, because of the Asian discrimination. They were not allowed to get into the University of Florida or University of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of Art of the Art of the Art of the Big Universities. So their only chance was to get to northern universities. And they needed some courses or something to upgrade themselves and get a good, you know, increase salary increments and so forth.

So large numbers of them flocked to Teachers College, but that particular program was not, at par with the rest of the Teachers College courses. So it was kind of a a summer a generous service course kind of thing for the summer students. I see. I see. And, I mentioned this because as a teacher as a teacher assistant, teaching assistant, I had a large scope of work, in terms of even lecture in the classes, let alone I mean, I did all the grading and giving advice and monitoring them and so forth.

But in addition, I would once in a while also be, you know, Bearde would tell me, you know, please go ahead and give this lesson or that lesson. So, I I the the short point I was trying to make was that, I felt quite academically, quite established because I was not only a a graduate student, nearing his, Duke, PhD, but, the semi teacher kind of thing. You know? Giving courses there. And so so I was, like, academically You're kinda kinda repeating your pattern from the from the, priests in Addis Ababa Street?

Almost. Yeah. Well, yeah. Veride and and and and and and were very fond of me and teasing me, when are you going to become the minister of education? That's it.

Yeah. It's a little later. Yeah. Yeah. So academically, I was secured.

I had, you know, established myself there among as a student, not as an academic. Politically, I was very active in the student's movement. Mhmm. Socially with a few but close friends who are still around. You know you know, Yayu, you know, Andy, you know, Hamid, I just died.

Manasseh, all of these were together. So it was a small, close friends that we did there. And, I did my class work in two and a half years South Colombia. And, by 1960 by the fall of 1960, I had done all the coursework requirements and only the dissertation, remained. Mhmm.

At that time, the teachers themselves found me a job. They decided that I should have a job. Well, you know, they were trying to help me because I, at at NUPELZ. So they found me this job at NUPELZ at State University of New York, which is, as I said, only 70 miles 75 miles from New York City. But why did you I mean, you you you wanted a job for the money, for the training.

You know what I mean? I mean, I'm sure there's multiple reasons, but were there other, you know, PhD candidates, you know, who are all per dissertation, who went on to do full time jobs? Well, it was becoming very difficult economically to do, because our scholarship, was discontinued after a while. You know? Again?

I thought they restarted it. So it it didn't communicate. Restarted it, but after 2 years, after we finished our coursework, I mean, mine ended, and they didn't give me so we needed money to yeah. So I was looking for a job, and this job came in handy. And I could teach as well as, write my dissertation.

Yeah. So that's, how I went to in New Port. Mhmm. I don't know whether we should stop here or should continue with one and it's been an hour and 15 minutes. You it will take up.

Okay. So we're now at New Port. This is, September 1960. Mhmm. This is the State University of New York.

It was the nearest campus for New York City. So a lot of our students came, from the city itself. There was no other branch of the city of New York, of the city cyst of the City University System in the city of New York itself. I didn't know that. Okay.

No. There wasn't any other time. No. Now there's Long Island. Right?

And that's that's the Exactly. Exactly. In fact, we used to go to Long Island, and teach extension courses from loopholes. A group of us, twice a week, we would drive down there and give the courses there for, until the campus itself opened. There was a temporary facility at one of the high schools.

So yeah. So there was no campus. Yeah. This was a very small college, really. When it started, it was just a teacher training college.

It is and, it was elevated to the college to our college, what they call college of education. It was called the state college of education and subsequently as a liberal arts college. Mhmm. And and and believe it or not, all this transformation happened while I was there. In the cities, I was there.

And the transformation took place because we had a very progressive, governor called Nelson Rockefeller. What do you know? Okay. He was he was a Republican, but there was only progressive. He was a progressive wing of the Republican.

And in fact, the Rockefeller wing of the Republican Party, as it used to be called. Yes. He was governor of New York State, and he also had the ambition of making the state university system in New York comparable to the one in in California. Wow. And And he even bought a whole university, believe it or not, the University of Buffalo, which was a a private college at the time, a private university at the time.

Rockefeller bought the college and made it part of the state university system. So it was If only if only California had him now. It was because Sony, Buffalo. And and and I think it was how many campuses it had. I forget, but, 10, 11, 12.

Sony New Year Nupos was one of the smallest one, but being close to New York, it had a lot of urban influence. I mean, you know, it was more, on corral with what was going on in the world, so to say. Anyway, I was hired largely because the colleague president, Eugene Link Uh-huh. I I remember his name. He had he and whatever board or whatever administration machinery they had at that time, I don't know.

They had decided that all undergraduates in the college should have exposure to non western societies. Okay. I think I mentioned that. I just a little earlier. So I I and another colleague in fact, 2 other colleagues, 3 of us were in charge of the, African, unit.

Another one was for Middle East. There was a, an Asia, group and a Latin American group. So there were 3 or 4 groups, I think. And all undergraduates would have to take these these courses. So, you know, we're quite kept busy.

In addition to that course, I was also teaching, a course on, the the this, the I should just backtrack a little bit and say what this course is all about. It's really like Africa 101. Mhmm. You remember this is 1960 when all those countries become independent. So Africa was in the news and then and and the university, the college must have felt that, you know, these students before they went and graduated, they should not know something about what these countries are, who Yeah.

What they were doing. And, you know, just just the most rudimentary. I mean, just the fact that they're there and what where the boundaries are. So so it was a, kind of a survey course. You remember I, told you that I myself was exposed to a call a survey of Africa, which, was history, culture, ethnology, everything.

Politics, all all. It was it was a little bit of that. So it was not, it was a freshman 101 coin kind of course. But in addition to that, I I taught, in the upper grades a course on, in sociology, public opinion, and mass media, which was the course that really took a lot of my time because it's it's you did a lot of preparation. It wasn't exactly in my field because my major didn't compare it to education, but I had read quite a bit on, Walt Lippmann and and, C Wright Mills.

This is a guy who who whose name, I'd like you to remember. C Wright, w r I g h t, Mills, m I l l s. You have you heard of him? Mm-mm. I've heard of him, but now C Wright Mills.

Never heard of him. Yeah. C Wright C Wright Mills, was a fantastic, teacher. In fact, he was teaching at Columbia, and I had taken one of his courses, but not for credit, but for audit. He's a guy who's wrote books like the power elite, the sociological imagination, the causes of the 3rd world war.

You know? Wow. That's pretty early. Yeah. He was a fantastic guy.

He was my kind of hero in those days. And, she died I know I know I'm jumping a little bit. She died in 1962 while I was still at NUPELZ. And the students who knew that I was he was my hero came the editor came and said, mister Rodai, you know, professor Rodai. He came and said, could you write his obituary for us, please?

And I know his obituary for the student newspaper. Mhmm. In very I mean, high for with high adjectives. You know? You can imagine.

Anyway, so that's course What I mean, just going back I mean, the title of the course is public opinion in the mass media. Walt Walt Lipman makes sense. I mean, because Yeah. He was an editorial writer who was very introspective. Yeah.

This I mean, how does C Wright Mills fit into this? I mean, or what did he teach? First of all, you didn't tell me. He said he was a teacher at Columbia. He he was a political, what I think he described himself as a a political sociologist kind of thing.

You know, his book, so the sociological imagination or or or take the power elite. The thesis of the power elite was that, the, now it is is commonly spoken about. Even Eisenhower, his last speech was about the party list. Namely that the elites of the army, also for industry, and commerce and so forth, they all kind of intermingled and they formed a social class of their own. Yeah.

And and, you know, I mean, he at that time, it was a novel idea, even a revolutionary idea. Mhmm. Chiraz Mitzu himself was considered a leftist and some would consider him a socialist, But, of course, I don't think he was a socialist. But, he also wrote a lot about the mass media and how the mass media was, making, the country homogeneous in terms of fault, in terms of activity, in terms of, their common reference was all becoming more and more, one that there was getting that America was losing its heterogeneity. Mhmm.

He was making the point that Chicago is just another New York except that in the Midwest in terms of the industries that are there, the shops that are there, the things that are being sold, the means of transportation, the articles that he needed, that that so in that sense, he was into, mass media. Mhmm. So he he was very much required reading for my students in that course. There were others, of course, but I just mentioned Walter Deepman and and him. That's amazing.

I mean, this is, you know, at this point, national broadcasting on television was, what, maybe 7 I mean, 10 years old maybe? 1952, 1962? Couldn't be that long. That too no. Not too many.

No. I think that started in the forties, isn't it? Just after the war. Television? I don't know.

Maybe. I mean, how many people had televisions in the forties anyway? But I mean I mean, you know Yeah. This is still, you know, here we are, you know, 50 years later. I mean, you know.

Yeah. I know there are only 3 stations. I mean, the the 3 networks, ABC, NBC, and b, and c, you know. There there are radio networks in the during the wartime. I mean, the first color TV was in the fifties.

I know that. So but I don't know. It's just amazing. I mean, this, I mean, this is that obvious then. I mean, you know, it's we've we've we've lost more perspective.

Right? Well, for it was obvious for not the general public for people, but for people like, Sirith Mills. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

And so he was really leading the intellectual awakening, in regard to the, getting America homogenized. Sorry. You were gonna say something? No. That's not.

I mean, it's just, it's amazing that, you know Yeah. I I I mean, I I I trust to his insights. I it but it it's it's even more worrisome where we are now. Right? I mean, what's been lost since?

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

So you were talking about the department and what you were teaching? Yeah. I was I was yeah. The general course, on on Africa, plus this course on the mass media and public opinion. And, you know, I I the point there that I was the only black person on the campus.

Staff wise from the staff. Students, there may have been a few. But even the students, there are very, very few. So I was quite well known. In fact, there was I'm I should say this.

I replaced a black American who had been notorious in on the campus, and everybody didn't like me. He was out outspokenly anti white, and he made himself unpopular, vis a vis the staff as well as vis a vis the students and the community. So they managed to get rid of him. And when they took me in his place, they had, you know, they were, you know, watching those very, very carefully. And and had this not been for the nice ones that they heard from my professors from Colombia who found the job for me.

I don't think they would have hired me because I had a bad experience with that other guy. I never make him, but I his, bad name was all over the place when I went there. You know? So, so so Bad was had his, his reputation department's wife who took it up on themselves to find an apartment for me. And my apartment was just across the campus really.

It was very, very close. Just a few yards away. I could see the administration building from my from my room. Yeah. So, I'm paid only $70 a month.

The oh, the my landlord was the the, butcher of the town. Yeah. The butcher shop. So I got good meat reserved for me. That's not bad.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so that was, the kind of atmosphere. But I I I because I was so different from that other guy, I was trying to explain why became popular.

I was so different from that other other black guy who had whom I had whom I'm replacing. I soon became kind of, you know, some of, very popular because, you know, I I I didn't get on the on, you know, anyone's way. I was not anti white. I was not anything. You know, I was not a black activist and so on.

So I stayed there, 3 years Mhmm. Between 1960 and 1963. Mhmm. And I was as I said, I was writing my dissertation. So my I divided my day, something as like, like this.

I would get up something like 2 o'clock in the morning. Oh my god. Yeah. I devote my until 6 o'clock. From 2 to 6, I would be writing my dissertation.

Those were the days when they didn't have Google or they didn't, you know, you the much of the time was taken by, judicial survey. You know, what has been written on this particular subject? I should say that I was writing on UNESCO's program of what they had called at the time fundamental education. It was an analysis and its ups and downs and so forth. Incidentally, I, I mean, this is just.

I don't know whether I should even say it. I found a large portions of that dissertation after 40 years in 1963. How many years is it? 63. That'd be, you know, 45, 47 years.

Yeah. Yeah. After 40 some years, I found a large portions of it published verbatim in another article, in a book. So I got in touch with the guy and he said, well, you know, the, he was writing on the history of adult education, and and this fundamental education was the closest to adult education I didn't get much material about about the period, and the request. Anyway Hold on a second.

His ex husband, his excuse for plagiarism was I couldn't find anything else? Well, no. I mean, he said, he was just using that particular period. I mean, and and in any event, I think the after 50 after 30 years, the dissertations don't have any copyrights or anything. I don't think copyright and plagiarism are are are connected.

I'm sorry. I don't care. But I I this this happened only last I will get up and write my dissertation. At 6 o'clock, I would stop and, get ready for breakfast and so forth and so on. And between 6 and 8:30, I would you know, that's the time to get prepared, for class and eat my breakfast and so on.

And and they'd be ready at my staff office, my college office at 8:30. Wow. So between 8:30 and 10:30, I would be at the college. And in the afternoons, I was more or less free, but, there may be students who would come for, you know, to, for consultation and so forth. So but it was a very compact and, busy topic, but, I managed to do it.

So did you so I mean, you went to bed early, I would assume. Yeah. Went to bed early. There was nothing else. It was a small campus there.

Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, in essence, it worked out well. I mean, it it's I I mean, knowing you, I think you would have had the discipline to do it anyway. But, you know, it's it's nice to have a structure because otherwise, it's you know, if you don't have a deadline, if you don't have a daily schedule, sometimes you can get lost.

Yeah. That's true. You know, the nearest place where you could get anything worth worth watching or having movies or, or listening lectures was at Vassar College, in Poughkeepsie Poughkeepsie, which is only which was only about, like, 10 miles away. Sometimes we would go to the, across the river to, the military camp west point for lectures and so forth. I should also mention here that, you know, the because when we mentioned the West Point, it reminded me of, the this is also the home place of Franklin d Roosevelt.

Which one was? This West Point. He lived in his his home. I forget the name now. Was just a few a couple of miles, 3, 4, 5 miles away from West Point.

Yeah. I have to look that up. His big his big, his big semester he spent Yes, sir. Yeah. Half his presidency was there.

He was hiding out them half the time. I mean, that's where he was. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen it.

In between. What was the what was the name of the I don't know. Now you gotta be curious. Yeah. And then his wife built a house there, and then, you know, I think he's buried there, isn't he?

As his dog is buried there. Phyla is buried there. Could be. But on the point, relevant to this is that missus Roosevelt Yeah. Eleanor Roosevelt had, established a custom to come to Newports every year sometime in March, sit down with the faculty in the faculty dining room and, open it for, any questions.

Wow. You know? So we would, you know, have that 1 hour or whatever time it takes to get a meal done, an hour. Yeah. Everybody would throw questions to her, and she would she would socialize.

And this was a a child formed, and, being a strong lady, she kept it to the end. God bless her. Out there. Yeah. Yeah.

And I remember when it came to me to I asked her my the question I asked her was, missus Roosevelt, do you mind telling us, which is your favorite newspaper? Okay. Because I'm speaking this much immediately. Okay. I'm sure she I'm sure I'm sure she had an opinion.

Yes. You know what she said? I've very politically, a drug charges. She said, I read them all. So that's all the end of the question.

At least with her, you believed it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we'll finish you. That's some the end of the summer in 1963 of summer Yeah.

While I was still at Newport's, I was invited to teach a course at Syracuse. But just before I went to Syracuse, again, sometime in the spring or I I went to Syracuse in the summer. So sometime, in the spring, I I graduated. Actually, I mentioned 90 in the spring of 1963, I I got my doctor's degree. So you did did you go defend it?

Don't you have to go back to Colombia? Oh, yeah. I I go there quite often. I didn't say that, but, I had a car. It was only an hour and a half away.

Virtual every weekend, I was in New York because it's such a lonely place there. And and continue my associations with the army and so forth. And also, meet with the United Nations, delegations. As I said, I used to invite some of these UN delegations to come to the class and and give lectures. So I was in con I mean, you know, it was just and I had this 1957 Chevrolet Impala, which was, which you now it's a collector's item in the the Impala.

So I don't know if you've heard of them. Sure. For the big the big big tails. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. The one in 58, 59 became big tails, but the 1 57 was just right. That's what we'll put that just right. Okay. Yeah.

That's what I'm saying. I bought it for $600. Wow. You know, you remember when I was at Harvard, we're finishing at Harvard, we had both a 1951 for for for a $150. It's going up.

Yeah. Yeah. This was a 56 Chevy, and the year was 60. So it was 6 Wow. Only 4 4 years old.

You know? Yeah. It's like now buying, 2,000 this is 2,010, but buying a 2006 Chevrolet for $600. It's beautiful. Yeah.

So, and so I was on constant. You know, I went there to defend courses, to defend my dissertation, to research, and to for, consultations with my professors. I was in constant pressure. As I said, much of the afternoon, I was more or less free. So I had a bit of time for that, and it's only an hour and a half.

Sometimes it was easier to take the bus, not diving to New York. And I don't take there was a bus stop there. I would take, the bus, an hour and a half again. And, yeah. Or to Times Square and then take the subway up to Columbia.

I lived in New York, so I knew the subway system without any problem. But just before I went to Syracuse, I went to Syracuse in June, I think, June, and the summer school started in June, July, June. Sometime in the spring, May of 63, I had 2, no, 2 visitors, unexpected visitors from Ethiopia. Okay. They just materialized from nowhere.

I was I was it was surprising. I was surprised. And these were doctor Akhilu Hafti Akhilu Hafti and one of the judges from the old days. His name, I have it somewhere. Yeah.

It was Trudeau. Father. Mister Trudeau. Pierre Trudeau. That's that's came and, to my apartment, knocked the the door or opened the door.

And you know what? They had come to offer me a contract as to teach at that's just formed University. Wow. In person? In person.

They came all the way to my campus, to my apartment. Oh my god. And, they offered me a contract that I could say I couldn't say no to. First of all, you know, I had overstayed my you know? I mean, you know, I had there was no reason to say no because I had gotten my PhD.

I had lived in America 7 years. I should back and serve my country. I I can't even grumble about not getting the right the right, I mean, I was appointed as assistant professor, not as a lecturer. You know? You know, the right title.

Mhmm. You know, the top the the top end of that salary range. So there there's no reason I could say no. So, I signed the the You signed it? Write in there and months later, I was at Syracuse.

And as I said earlier on, yes. She came to to to finish that one because that she was missing. And by September, we were on our way back to Ethiopia. Wow. Yeah.

So it all so it all came together at the end. That was gonna be my question. Did you know what's gonna happen at the end? And, yeah. Yeah.

So it was by the by the by September, we were on our way to Ethiopia. We flew together. Yeah. She stayed behind in Asmara Yeah. Because, visited his family were there.

Yeah. But I continued to, this and I arrived there on New Year's Day. Uh-huh. This is in 1963. September 11, 1963, Moscow morning, Ethiopian calendar.

And nobody was expecting me, so I took a taxi to my mother's house. Yeah. Everybody was surprised, but luckily, it was the, New Year's, so I didn't have to make any special meals for me or anything. I was so that was, I think this completes my stay in America more or less. It does.

It it ends with it ends with a very nice ending. Yeah. Okay. Beautiful.