2. Early Childhood Memories, 1941-1945

Notes

  • Return of mother from Italy

  • Restoration of Emperor Haile Selassie

  • Going to church school

  • Household life

  • Okay. We're back. It's, now 2010. January 3, 2010. This is episode 2 of, of the, of the of the, series, which everybody's been waiting for.

    And I think we're, we're not gonna have the pleasure of having, Tazita join us because I think she's working. Oh. And she's probably working a lot of Sundays. So I I don't know. But she you know, I don't know if I told you, but she heard the, the CD ROM, the the recording of the first session, and, she was thrilled.

    So Yeah. Yeah. So we have one fan already, and hopefully we'll get more. Okay. So, according to our calendar, today's session, was to cover schools, and I think we left off last week having talked about the Italian effects on the family, the Italian imprisonment of your parents.

    So, I don't know I don't know where, you were thinking of starting, but, please go on. Okay. Let me go back a little bit and say a few words about the Italian occupation and what I remember of it. Okay? Is that alright?

    Absolutely. Yeah. Well, my memories of the Italian occupation really very blurred, hardly any because I was only like, when the Italians arrived, I was less than 3 years old. You know, they came in 1935 or 36 is the occupation. So I was 2, 2 something.

    And by the time they left in 1941, I was only 7 years old. So I don't really remember much. But there are a few things I remember towards the end of the Italian occupation. And, certainly, when the Italians left and the English came in, the English troops came in. So so just let a little bit about that.

    That'd be great. I remember air raid sirens for instance. Sure. As the Italians left and the English mechanized, troops arrived in Addis Ababa. There were air sirens.

    I'm I'm not 100% sure who was, making those sirens, whether it was the departing Italians or the arriving English. I'm not sure. But we were told, to cover the roof of our house with eucalyptus tree so it would not be seen from the air. I guess they were they were afraid of some bombings. So, we put eucalyptus, leaves on top of our roof.

    And we were also asked to darken the glasses of the window panes, you know, the glass panes are on in the house on the doors and windows. Did you ever see planes? Yes. I saw some planes. I can't remember whether they're English or Italian either.

    But I also remember some of the African troops that came with the English. They they were just going around the village, the various neighborhoods. And we were saluting them. Everybody called them Jambo. Apparently, they're from Kenya.

    Mhmm. So Jambo became a popular word after the, after that. So whenever we saw those African troops, you know, military with military attire, we would could say jumbo and salute them the way the Italians saluted. We were we were, required to salute the Italians, you know, the fascist way. So the Kenyans or the some Africans actually marked marched with the English?

    I never knew that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Indeed.

    Oh, yes. Indeed. You see, the the English decided the British decided to assist Aries Lassier, to regain his throne when Italy joined the war in 1940. Yeah. With the on on on the side of the, of the Germans.

    At that time, this was June 1940. The British decided to help Iris Lase who was already in England, because they were the British were afraid that unless they can clear the Italians from behind their lines in Ethiopia, you know, all their colonial troops would be endangered, the ones in Kenya and Tanzania and so forth. So, actually, the British brought in colonial troops all the way from South Africa. Smuts, general Smuts was one of the generals who came from on the southern front. Wow.

    So this is concurrent. I mean, so at that time, Italy and England were already at war in continental Europe? Yes. After June 1940? Yeah.

    Yes. Yes. They were at war. It was the Rome Berlin axis. So the, English were helping Alice Lase.

    Well, there was self interest as I said because they didn't want any enemy troops behind their lines because they were already fighting in in in Europe. So they started to clear Somalia, which was already an Italian colony. And, also, they took clear off Italians from Somalia and from Ethiopia and Eritrea. And the troop on last week, I talked about how the war started in the north in Tigray. Yes.

    I should have mentioned that it was actually a 2 pronged war. There was also a war front in the south. It, from the because the Italians are Somalia. They thought it was called Italian Somaliland. Yeah.

    And so there too, they attacked on the Ogden front. And the law so and some of Ethiopian generals were fighting, the Italians on the southern front. You know, the RAS Dasta, for instance, and, RAS, the, the and others. So this is at a time when the Ethiopia, you know, was under Italian control from the most part. Right?

    It was almost simultaneous in the north and the south. It started in the north, but almost concurrently, there were Italian attacks from the south as well. So the emperors sent some of his troops and some of his generals on the to the southern front and but the bulk of the Ethiopian army was sent to the north. Wow. So at the end of the war 2, the when the Italians were being chased out, it was again, you know, a 2 pronged attack.

    From the south came, colonial troops, South Africans, Kenyans, and so forth. Clearing Italians from Somaliland, from the Ogaden, and and moving north to Addis Ababa. Yeah? Yeah. And and the emperor himself by then was had been flown from his exile in in in England to, Khartoum in Sudan.

    And he was given some troops, as well as Ethiopian troops who managed to join him. He came in from the west, from the from the Sudanese border and, fought his way into Ethiopia on on the west from Gorjem, you know, from the Lektania area. And another English group from Eritrea down south, moving south to Addis Ababa. So the Italians were attacked from all three directions. It was funny because we always sort of heard, you know, the Italians came from Eritrea to Ethiopia and, you know, there was, of course, a battle, but their exit, you know, at the hands of the British and Ethiopians, I don't I mean, at least, you know, where I I learned it or heard about it was kinda downplayed.

    You know, it was kind of like a an afterthought. And and in here, it's like a, you know, a major war in in the sort of the major front in the colonial the colonial front of the World War 2. Yes. I mean, you're right. Not much has been written about them, but there are, nowadays, a few books written about them.

    The leader of the Italian force on the south was Graziani who later became viceroy of the whole of Addis Ababa. You remember we talked about the Italian massacre of Yucati 12, 1929, Ethiopian calendar. Yes. Or February 19, 1937, Gregorian calendar. He became later on viceroy of, the whole of Ethiopia.

    But at the beginning, he was the, general who headed the Italian attack from the south, from Somalia, through the Ogaden, Harar, Awash into Addis Ababa. A very interesting episode. If I can just digress a little bit is the Italians, you remember I said, entered Addis Ababa in May 1936. Mhmm. May 5, 1936.

    Mhmm. Whether it's by coincidence or by planning, I think it was a latter. The emperor, when he returned from the you know, as I said, he he he fought his way into Ethiopia from the Sudan. Mhmm. He entered Addis Ababa the very same day, May 5th, 5 years later, 1941.

    Wow. Yeah. So it was the same day. There are stories, I don't know how true they are, but several well, a few others say that the troops of the English the colonial troops coming from the south with general Cunningham and others fighting their way through the Ogaden into Harar and Addis Ababa. They could have arrived in Addis Ababa earlier on, earlier than May 5th.

    Mhmm. But, they were told to await the emperor's entry, from the west. You know? It it it was a matter of a week or 2 weeks or maybe a month. So there was a bit of planning in that sense.

    But in any event, it's it's very interesting to know that the occupation lasted exactly 5 years, May 1936 to May 1941. So do you remember the emperor coming in? I mean, that that must have been a good idea. Yes. Vaguely.

    I remember flags, being hang all over the town. People, humiliating, you know, wearing their best clothes, so women and the men. Beyond that, not much. Vaguely remember his first radio address to the in the nation, but not much. Yeah.

    So you were you were 7 then. Right? I mean, that's a Yeah. I was 7 exactly. That's a pretty big event.

    What do you remember anything that happened, like, at that point, you know, they've been around for, you know, 4 or 5 years in your world. Right? Were there Italians leaving or, you know, like, what what changed, you know, these Italians that were there and that have been around for a while? Well, there was euphoria in the in the country, in the city. People who are afraid to, I mean, during the Italian war, occupation, the Italians brought in, with them.

    Very, very strong color, apartheid kind of thing. There are areas in Addis Ababa where the locals local Ethiopians were not allowed to go into in the Piazza, for instance. Wow. They they established Mercato. They call it Mercato indigino indigenous market.

    So the Ethiopians would go shopping only in the Mercato, not in the Piazza. That was for the foreigners. Mhmm. So there are things like that. Whenever you saw a foreigner, a white, Italian, you have to salute him.

    All those things stopped when they, when they were chased out. That's amazing because they didn't I mean, they sort of had the reputation of being less racist, overly racist than the British. Right? I mean, that's not what you remember though. What?

    No. You see the Italians went through several phases during their occupation. Although they said only 5 years, there are 3 different vice Mhmm. The representative of Mussolini or of the emperor, Vittorio Emanuele, Vic Victor Emmanuel, the Italian king. His representative work on viceroys.

    The first one was de Bono, general de Bono. He was the one who was heading the Italian troops, when the war first started in 1935. He became a viceroy after the Italians won for about a year, maybe a year and a half, 36, 37. Then he was replaced with Graziani, Marshall Graziani. Mhmm.

    He was the ruthless ruthless, viceroy. It was mostly during this tenure as viceroy that these old Karl Barnes and the Italian, massacre of 1937 took place. Yeah. And, a lot of were committed during his during his tenure as, as a viceroy. Then Graziani, when things became completely, impossible and and the Italians felt, I mean, the authorities in Rome felt that they were losing grip over Ethiopia.

    They replaced Graziani. In any event, he was wounded. You remember the That was the bomb. Yeah. Yeah.

    He was wounded and so forth. So he was replaced by a more, a kinder, a friendlier, viceroy called In fact, he was he was, from the royalty. He was a duke. Duke of Aosta. Mhmm.

    Duke of Aosta as, in Italian, he was called duke of Aosta. He was more humane. It was during his tenure that the Italians decided to release the prisoners from Asmara. Oh, no. Asmara.

    Sorry. From Asmara. Mhmm. Yeah. As well as those who had been imprisoned in, in Somalia And, in the I I on an island in just off the coast of Eritrea, a place called Nokra.

    Mhmm. So so he was a more human, a more, well, he was trying to get some kind of an indirect rule. He was try look out look of Oostar tried to get, to regain the confidence of the various rasses who who are defeated but still in Ethiopia. Yeah. I mean, in in the country.

    Mhmm. So he was trying to rule through them, rule Goyam through the through the ruler of Goyam and rule. And, similarly, the Oromo regions of Olagga and Ilubawi through their, traditional chiefs, that they were there. You know, they discovered Xavier, they, you know, and many others. Yeah.

    So the sort of the British model. I mean, the British had perfected this. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

    Exactly. But by then, you know, the the the war was end it was winding up and, you know, the British were coming in. Exactly. So so but while the occupation was still, you know, fully alive, they released the prisoners. I mean, they didn't release the prisoners, you know, when they were going down.

    They released them when they were still in power. Well, when they are trying to, make themselves more popular, when they're trying to get a grip over the country, You know, during the Graziani, when he was viceroy, all the patriots as we call them, they were really fighting the Italians, hit and miss hit and run kind of battle. It's all about career warfare throughout the country. They were attacking the railway lines, the telephone lines, and so forth and so on. Yeah.

    So think things became very ungovernable, very shaky for the Italians. So to counter that effect and to get the, to to be more popular and to get the, more the traditional chiefs on their side during the viceroy, era or or or or when took over as viceroy. Yeah. They became more tried to be more humane and tried to be more, try you know, more friendly. Yeah.

    So did so go ahead. Go ahead. So they so the Italian, policy changed. You know? It was up and down, as I said, you know, because depending who was at the top Mhmm.

    And how bad things were going for the Italians, you know. When they released us, not our people. Who came home? You mean from my family? Yeah.

    My mother and Kifli and Zimam, they came home. And then a lot of the other, good many of the other prisoners from Asmara were also released. I mean, you know, there were about 300 something in in as in. I don't know how many of them were replaced or released. But I know, one of the big generals, major generals, Ras Amuro, who was head of the Ethiopian forces that came that attacked it the Italians from Gojjam via Begimdur towards, Takase.

    Mhmm. Rasemuru, had been put in a prison in an island just off Italy called Ponza. He was not released until even after the emperor returned, after 1941. Because he's actually dangerous, I mean, to them. Yes.

    It's maybe they forgot him too. He was in a small island there. I don't know what happened, but he he didn't come until, I don't know, when 42, 43. The emperor returned in 41. Yeah.

    So so gosh, Keflez and his mom came home or Keflez and his mom came home. What do you do you remember what they said when they came home? I mean, they were even smaller. Right? Did they did they have anything that they remember?

    I'm sure they remembered a lot, but do you remember what they said? Well, not all that much, but I remember vaguely their, the clothes they're wearing, you know, very different from what we were wearing. Yeah. Those of us who were still behind, they were had a coats, you know, carport overcoats. Had European women's attire.

    I mean, she was only what? She was only 5 years older than me. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    And, yeah. And I remember they were, they didn't know in Jalan Wirth that they had forgotten or whatever, but they wanted the 12 European Bridge, double. That kind of small little things I remember. And they were just running around, in a way. Whereas, the rest of us would, you know, it was the habits at that for Yankees of that age to be calm and not to talk unless they are asked and Yeah.

    To stay by the by the wall. You know? Yeah. They they become westernized. Yeah.

    Yeah. They didn't do that. You know? Just a while. Same thing with that when we came here.

    Yeah. So what so what changed when they came home? I'm I you know, did the did the household, you know, kinda go back to the way it was before? Or, you know I mean, I guess your dad didn't come back, obviously. No.

    He didn't come back. No. Well, my mother took, resumed her, you know, she went into the big house. Not the big house that the tenants were renting, but the house where she lived until the until her death. Yeah.

    And, I think I told you a little bit about how, she and my, were arguing in front of her about, the money not having been given to my Oserob, mama Wafana, for our upkeep. And, but what I remember also is shortly after that, less than a year later, a a news came that our father had died in Italy. Uh-huh. And my mother, I remember, was telling me, has been tell was telling us that my father who was following the political situation in Europe. He was much more aware than than the rest than many of the other his countrymen.

    He was always hoping that if the Italians joined war, against the English. If they join if they, joined sides with, Hitler and declared war on the on the English and and and the western powers. That would that would fasten the, liberation of Ethiopia. Mhmm. But he he died before we were told before the Italians actually joined.

    But but but only a few months before they joined. He must have died, in the spring of 1940 because the Italians joined the war in June of 1940. So it was only a few months Yeah. Before he knew that the the Italians had joined the the, Germans. And and and therefore, Ethiopia's liberation was Was imminent or yeah.

    Was imminent. Exactly. Yeah. But still there were signs, so he he must have Yeah. And there were signs we're gonna be combating each other.

    So but he was not so he I know you told me, but was he in imprisoned with the rest of the family, or they're in different places? No. No. Different places. He was in Lungobuco mostly.

    Lungobuco Mhmm. Is on the main Italian peninsula, you know, the Italian booth, towards the end of the Italian booth. If you if you can visualize the Italian, the map of Italy. Yes. You know, it goes down and then there is a a booth on one side and then another one on the left.

    The, Lungobuco is somewhere between the two tips. You know? Mhmm. But on the mainland. Whereas, our mother and the rest of the Ethiopian prisoners were in Azinara, which as I said last week was off the island of, Sicily.

    Between Sicily and the mainland, there is a small island called Azinara. In fact, it's a group of islands, arch archipelago kind of islands, between Sicily and the mainland. So and one of them one of these islands, small islands was called Asinara, and that's where they were. So they were not together today to make a long story short. So we assume they had no communication.

    Right? It seems they this they they knew something about each other as situation, but not much. But an interesting tale here, Rafael, is that when together with among the people who are with my father, Ilungabuko, was Balambaras Manu. Oh, no. Yeah.

    Your grandfather on your mother's side. Yeah. Yeah. He was, he told me later, after I married your mother that, he was in the same area, perhaps even in the same house as my our as my father. And he said he he was making tea and and and, you know, preparing, small, how do you call them?

    Shine, and and coffee for our father when he was ill. So so they knew each other from the from the prison days, from their days in prison in Italy. Do do you know what he died of? I mean, was he was ill? Or do you what do you know?

    That's that's what we were told. We were told that he has some liver condition, but, we have no way of confirming it. Does anybody think he was killed, or do do we is there any reason to think that? Well, some wild well, I wouldn't say wild, but there's some like, his, his brother, Ababa. Mhmm.

    Gashababa Ali, Tamur's father. He he was a close brother of, our father. He never believed that our father died a natural death. But but he, you know, he's just a matter of suspicion, and, I don't think he has any yeah. Maybe, yeah.

    He wasn't there? No. No. No. No.

    No. He he fought with him in the northern fronts and and, you know, they were in the same army against the Italians. But when our father took, the Italians took, our father prisoner, Gashababa, his brother, his younger brother was not among those who was jailed or or detained. Right. So now that you're now that all the the 3 kids are back, wait.

    Where's Tiyadis and, Tiyal Finesh, that's, Miss Le's mother. They were they were kept at the American Mission School. I think I mentioned that last week. They were given, to the directors of the school. Oh, yes.

    Yeah. Yes. So show missus, I can't remember her name. She yeah. It's just there are boarding schools at the American Mission in Gunlala.

    The mission that, was started by the American Presbyterian mission. It was attached to the hospital, headed by doctor Lamy. So they were schooling there. So now so she never left. But so now all the kids are back.

    So did you go to school while, everybody was gone? I mean, I guess No. Between 37, you're home? Yeah. I was home.

    I was home. I was very close to my Moxie. Mhmm. But I didn't start school. That's, the next phase of, I don't think I I started school until 1942, late 42 or early 43.

    Which is how old are you? 42. I would have been, like, 8. Okay. So so here, you'd be a second grader probably.

    Right? Yeah. Or pushing to 1st, 2nd grade. Yeah? Yeah.

    Or or even 43, perhaps. Even 3rd grade? Yeah. But, even then, I didn't go to, you know, the the western schools. I went to a traditional where the Yazimam, Kifli, and I, went to, started our schooling at, one of those traditional schools run by a priest where you learn the Ethiopian alphabet and reading and writing and so forth.

    Yeah. Church school. The most of those schools are attached to a church, but not all of them. The one we attended was an it was a a a neighborhood school. There was a priest, Yanita Oldhamadin.

    Yenita is the the name we usually give to our teachers. I think it's etymologically, it's probably, my lord. But what I would call them. I remember him very distinctly. He's, he was from Aksum.

    He was our teacher. He had 30 or 40 kids. He was, giving lessons from in the home of, a friend of the family, Thomas Taferia, Wolde, near the Lazarus mission. Yeah. I don't think you would remember it, but it's some north of where Gulale.

    It's the northern part of Gulale between, if I don't know if again, you remember between Rufail Church and Madani Adam Church, somewhere along that line. So the 3 of us would, walk maybe 2 kilometers from our house to the school there and spend the whole day there. Wow. And and and it's very interesting to reflect on what those traditional schools like. I mean, it look like there was this one teacher who would have 30 or 40 students, sometimes even more.

    They are different, of different ages, different levels of education. Some were just starting their their alphabet. Others were able to read and write, but they were all there, and he would manage the whole school just from where you are sitting. Wow. Sometimes you would have the more advanced, pupils teach the ones, who are just starting.

    So those who are reading the, reading might be able to help him teach the ones who are who are just starting the alphabet. But on the whole, he was, I mean, all those teachers were fantastic. One one class schools. You know? One classroom schools, the kind of thing.

    And and also in the middle of the city. I mean, it's not, you know, it's not a rural area. I mean, there's, you know, a lot of distractions and, you know Yeah. Yeah. And kids coming and going.

    I mean, that's, But at that time, really, it felt the that part of Gululeli was virtually empty. I mean, there are full of trees, eucalyptus trees. Sometimes we were afraid to walk even through those trees. And sometimes a a servant would have to accompany us to take us to the school because, we were afraid that, you know, something might happen. My dogs, my my wild dogs, or my attackers.

    Anything can happen. But, anyone, we were young. So it was myself, Kifley, and Zima. And, I Yeah. I'm I managed to complete the curriculum there, so called curriculum, which is, reading the Psalms of David.

    That's the end of the tradition. The first stage of the traditional school is when you finish Dawits. The the Psalms of David. Thouwit Dagama. He's he's recited the the Psalms thus.

    The the phase of the equivalent of primary school in the western, system. At that time, the teachers were rewarded, were given it as a reward. In my case. In our case, he was given, what the Durif. Durif is a a very expensive kind of Gabi, given specially to for all which is worn on only on special occasions.

    Wow. So when your teacher gets done, that means you you know, he's done a good job. So the reward, the teacher, not the pupil for finishing this. So he gets the graduation gown. Yeah.

    Yeah. So so when you guys were walking to school, the 3 siblings, what what were the ages? Well, 7 or 8 in my case. Kifre was 1 year younger, so 6 or 7. Zimam was 3 years older than me, so she would be, instead of, 8, should be 11:11 or 2.

    Yeah. Isn't she? Yeah. So, I mean, that's sort of like our girls, you know, like Leah and Henna walking, you know, a mile to school by themselves, you know, through the woods. Exactly.

    Then coming back. Yeah. So when do you so, I mean, everybody does this? I mean, this was the norm? I mean, like Yeah.

    Yes. Yes. This was the norm. And then and then after that, you went to I mean, what was primary school then? Like, after that, what would the kids do?

    Okay. After, I com I completed the the first level, Dawid Magam, finishing the, Sons of David, Incidentally, maybe I shouldn't say this, but Kifli and Zimam didn't do so. They went halfway, but they didn't manage to finish it in 1 year. Normally, you're supposed you're expected to finish it in a year, maybe a year and another month. Anyway, Kifli and I were admitted to the Tafari McConnell School.

    That must have been 1943 or 44. This was, through the help of, our, the Jasmaj Iguzo. Jasmaj Iguzo is our grand uncle kind of thing. I mean, if you want to be very specific about it, she was the brother of our grandmother. Of your grandmother so your father's mother or your where your mother's mother?

    My mother's mother. Okay. And the Jasigazoo are brother and sister. Okay. Okay.

    And he was a a jazmaz. He was a very very close to the emperor. In fact, he was a cabinet minister under Menilek. Wow. Yeah.

    So he's an older man. He was exiled the whole time during the Italian occupation. He spent the whole time, in, the Ethiopian monastery on the in the Ethiopian monastery in in Jerusalem along along with the emperor's wife, empress Menon, and the royal family. They were all kept in the holy land in the Ethiopian monastery. A lot of it's well, the high ranking people.

    I didn't know that. Yeah. Raskasa and many others were were kept there. Yeah. And that that was self imposed?

    I mean, they they fled to exile? I mean, they were imprisoned set by the Italians. No. No. No.

    They went with the emperor. Actually, when the emperor left for, exile Yeah. They accompanied him all the way to, Jerusalem to the Holy Land. The emperor continued his, exile into Europe and and into England. But the other the entourage and many of the his wife Mhmm.

    And the the judge Gazoo, Ras Casa, and many others. The ministers of the FEN, services Haile. They all stayed in, in, the holy land in the Ethiopian monastery. So it was a self exile. I mean, they went in on the same train to Djibouti with the emperor.

    Took the same boat from Djibouti to, the holy land. And and then the emperor continued, as I said, while the rest of the his entourage remained in the Holy Land. And and if the Italians knew they were sailing, I mean, they would have tried to shoot the boat, I would assume. Right? I mean, they they had to sneak?

    But at that time, they, I mean, that part of the, Middle East was British controlled. Oh, I see. The Italians had not joined war against them. This was in 1936 we're talking about, you know, when they when they were exiled. Emperor left the Addis Ababa, in in, 1936.

    He left Ethiopia in 1936. Yeah. So that he could get away with it. I mean, he was sort of as soon as he sort of left where he crossed the Red Sea, he was sort of out of Italian danger? Yeah.

    He was assisted, I think, by the British because, because I think they, helped him with the transportation, getting the boats, the the ship that took him and his family and his, entourage, and, passes through Europe. And when he was he came to when he finally landed in oh, yeah. To in, in England too. I mean, there there were some assistance on the part of the English. That's amazing.

    And perhaps and perhaps some other, European powers as well, but certainly the English. So now the the Jas the Jasemath said helped you to go to Tafar e makonnen? Yes. In what sense? Well, he, when the well, he you had to have special permission in those days, to enter the the schools when they were boarding schools.

    You know, there are, lots and lots of children of our age, but only so many places in the schools. You know? Yeah. So you had to first priority was given to people who whose who those pupils rather children whose parents, had served their country or had died during the war, or of, you know, closer to the emperor's court and so forth. So, the Justice Gazzo took it upon himself that the sons of Nagarasodaijo should be allowed to go to Tafari Mokonin School, you know, because of their father's service to the country.

    Wow. So the 2 of us, and I went to Tafari Mokonnen School, were admitted to Tafari Mokonnen. Free. Boring. Yeah.

    And our sisters, 3 years a month. And, this went to, empress Benin School, which is the sister school not too far from the Farimakon School itself. How where is that compared to Golale? Oh, not just north of the, November the university. Yeah.

    So in Sudeikilo, they're just north of Sudeikilo. So it's a boarding school but he could have gone home. Well, I mean, there are rules that they didn't allow us to leave. I mean, there are very strict rules. That you weren't you weren't allowed to leave, but I mean, you know, but it was still in the same city.

    I mean, it wasn't Oh, yeah. I mean, there are day schools. There are in addition, there are it was roughly 1 third boarding and 2 thirds day schools. Oh, okay. So it was not just all of not everyone was a, boarding boarding student.

    So what were you? You were a day or boarding? No. No. Boarding.

    Full boarding and, free. So that was that was advantage. I mean, you know, in in this country, you'd you'd wanna be a day student, but, you know, that's different back home. Yeah. No.

    No. This was the considered great, privilege. And I we stayed both Kiefel and I stayed throughout my our primary and secondary schools at the Farimakon school. We wouldn't go to any other school. Begun and finished there.

    One thing to note here is that both schools, both Tafarimokounen and Empress Marin existed before the war. Tafarimokounen was established in 1924 by the, by the regent Rastafari Mokonnen. You you know the the emperor before he was he became emperor. Yeah. He was regent, and he was called Rastafari, Tafari Mokonnen.

    Yeah. So it was named after him. He he started it in 1924. Wow. 6 years before he be he was crowned as emperor.

    He was crowned as emperor in 1930. Mhmm. And, the scrolls started in 1924. And and a few years later, I think, like, 2 or 3 or 4 years later, the empress, his wife, empress Mellon, started another school for girls, not very close to Tafari Mokon School for Girls. So those 2 schools existed before the Italian war.

    But during the Italian occupation, the they were no longer schools. The the family members served as some kind of a storage, storeroom facilities for the Italian army. So there it was closed. So it was only reopened after the emperor arrived. Almost within a year of the emperor's arrival return from exile.

    It was started. So so it's a miracle you guys got in. I mean, there must have been a huge Exactly. Pressure to get in. I mean, you know Exactly.

    Exactly. That's why the intervention of the jazz machine goes to help the a lot. Yeah. In 19, 43 or 44. Yeah.

    I was I was gonna say, who are the teachers? But go go ahead. Oh, yeah. I was going exactly. That was Yeah.

    Yeah. I mean, when I say, we joined the school, don't make it look like it was, like, church school, the school like I said. Yeah. I mean, it was a very, very rudimentary school. Remember, the world is still raging in Europe.

    Yeah. We're talking about 40 2, 43. The war didn't stop until 1945. Yeah. So there were there was virtually no nothing by way of school supplies, exercise books or chalks or blackboards or deck.

    There was nothing of the sort. There were no trained teachers. Obviously, the few that were trained before, that were educated Ethiopians before the war were massacred by the Italians. So Yeah. Very little left by way of, Ethiopian teachers.

    So what happened was the, the emperor, and and his assistants, his advisers rounded up whoever was available in the city. Greeks, Sardinians, Egyptians, and a few leftover Ethiopians, to start school, at the Farimu Korone. There was no nothing like grade 1, grade 2, grade 3. Like, when I entered the Farimuqonin school, just as an example, again, in 43 or 44, the school start had 36 grades. You are either class 36, and then you move way up.

    You you move your way towards 1. Grade 36, 35, 34, 33. When you enter grade 1, then you finish. So I I was assigned to grade, when I first arrived. I think I I was assigned into grade 33.

    That means 3 years 3 grades above the beginning. Grade 36 is the beginning. I was in grade 33. The reason was because I had already been to the traditional school, and I was able to read. So when the when the teacher had me read something and I was able to read it fluently even though I may not have understood what was what I was reading.

    Yes. I was put into grade 33. The very same day, another teacher comes and gives me something in English, and I couldn't read it. Yeah. I didn't know word of English.

    I didn't know I didn't know the alphabet. Yeah. So the so so that teacher took it up on himself that I was not properly in the proper classroom. So he moved me to, grade 33, from grade, no. I was I was grade 33, then he no.

    No. Sorry. From grade 33, I was the teacher who, noticed that I was reading well. I'd moved me to 22. Sorry.

    22. From 33 to 10 years? I mean, you get it. No. You can move to 3, 4, grades in a year if Okay.

    Okay. So I was moved to 11 grades, to 22. But when I couldn't read English, the second teacher, the same day, moved me to grade 26, and that's where I stayed. 26. I mean, the school had I mean, this was immediately after the war.

    So I mean, you know, the whatever education there was before the war was discontinued during the Italian war. But the kids started kept on growing. So when Tafarikokun School opened, there were kids aged between 827. Oh my god. Yeah.

    In my own schools, there were, in my own classroom, there were people who were quite old. We would call them because they were older. Their their fathers are, were living in the in the in the country, and had died during the Italian war in in some of the battles. So they were allowed into the Tafari Mokon school, but they were not, as young as we were. Wow.

    Yeah. And the school really started the Harry Mokon school really started to reorganize and become a proper western style school beginning 1945 with the coming of Canadian Jesuits in 1945. And I suggest we stop here because after that, after 1945, Tafari Mokouni was a different school. It's a different phase of education. It was more like, Western education as we know it here.

    But if there is something I can remember about what happened at the traditional school or at the unorganized Farimokono School. I'll mention it. But, but beginning 1945, with the Canadian teachers when they came, the Canadian justice teachers, it was reorganized, on proper western style from grades 1 to grade 8, by age, by level of learning learning. So it it it was a different setup. What did, where did, Gaskafly start?

    Oh, I don't remember. Well, just a little below me, I think. Yeah. But, you know, it would be it when we start next time, I will, try to say a little bit about how the emperor selected the Canadian Jesuits' father. Okay.

    And, why Canadians? Why Jesuits' fathers? How come he gave them the existing school instead of letting them start their own school? And also how he managed to cope with the resistance of the traditional orthodox priest, who who didn't welcome Catholics there were Jesuits, who were very close to the, emperor, and they even managed to convert one of our, emperors, Susenhos, in 16/30 something into into into the Catholic faith. And the civil war emerged, you know, developed as a result of that.

    So that yeah. Yeah. Which were which which didn't make him very popular. Yeah. But Susenius later, renounced his Catholic faith, and he died as, as an Orthodox Christian.

    That's what we say and what we believe. And that's probably what that's what happened also. So it wasn't an easy choice to choose Canadians who are there. You know, they were not known too much. French, Jesuits, Catholics, and that's a very, very interesting, choice.

    And Good. I think it will be starting we'll start with that next week. Next week. Wonderful. Okay.

    Great. Thank you again. This is fantastic. We'll talk again next Sunday, and I'll stop here. Okay.

    Can can we just, how do you say it? Suspend it a little bit so I see if there is anything in my note. Sure. Go ahead. One, item I should have mentioned is you remember I had said that, Kiefel and I were admitted to Tafari Mukden School.

    Yes. And, Zimam and Adis, were admitted to Empress Menon School. That leaves Erfinish, the eldest sibling Yeah. Miss Le's mother. She didn't, well, she was not she she was not she didn't she didn't go to any of these schools.

    She was considered too too old, I guess. I don't know what. But shortly after that, she was married. She was married away. You know, she was married off in 1944 or 45.

    So she didn't go to I mean, she had gone to the American Presbyterian Mission School in Gulalia, as I said, during this other occupation. But after this, I just came, she didn't join her 2 other sisters, the mom, and, had this to go to, Empress Madon. Empress Madon. That's one. And then I think I mentioned about how soon after our mothers returned from, Azinara, we had heard of our father's death, and that was, of course, a very sad event.

    And, as many as I think I told as I said last week Yeah. As many as our mother had many of her relatives and her nephews and uncles and so forth had died in the course of the war, and was crying. You know, one of the first things I remember as as I told you is the perennial Luxo Yeah. After they returned because so many of her our relatives had died. This was yet another one, you know, when she heard about her husband's death Yeah.

    Shortly after he returned. Yeah. I think I'll stop here. Well, yeah, actually, I I wanted to ask also. I mean, you you didn't say anything about this, but I would imagine at that time, you know, it was not common for girls to go to school.

    I mean, was that was that not remarkable in and of itself that there was first a girl's school, school, you know, and Yeah. That, you know, then all the kids, all her you know, your mother's daughters, you know, went off to secondary school. Is that not a was that normal or unusual? Secondary school. Well, I mean, at the time, they went to primary school.

    Right? But is this I mean, what proportion of the city kids went beyond church school at that time? Very, very little. Very, very few. I mean, but as I indicated, those 2 schools had existed before the war.

    But the enrollment situation, at the time, like in Tafarimu Khodin, for instance, in 1945, it was roughly 1 third boarding and 2 thirds day school with a total student population of maybe 4, 500. It's a little less in, in in empress man in school. So this was just the beginning of, modern education or or at least, yeah, after the occupations of a little very few. It's a it's a drop in the bucket. I mean, you know, 400 kids out of Addis Ababa.

    I mean, you know, much less Ethiopia. Yeah. Yeah. And and then all the kids in one family went there, which is just amazing. Right?

    Yeah. Yeah. A little later, other schools were also reopened in Addis Ababa. Menilek School that had been established by Emperor Menilek in 1907 was was also reopened. So the that also took some of the, weight.

    Also, Madani Adam School or Baraba School in Gulale. That was also reopened shortly after the emperor's return. A few such schools were opened in Addis, and then, it's maybe next week or sometime during the our sessions. I will say a few words about how much education expanded between 1941 and 1951. In in 10 years, this was, you know, education was the emperor's main focus Mhmm.

    Immediately after his return from exile. In a matter of 10 years, they, between 1941 and 1951, they had the emperor managed to this, of course, the the Ethiopia, I should say. But the emperor, as it said, established primary schools, secondary schools, commercial school, a technical school, an engineering school, and even a university college. The university college that I I attended was started in 1950, 51. Just in time?

    Yeah. Just yeah. I'm on the 1st to to enter it. I was in the second group that was admitted in 1951. The first, entry was in 1950.

    Wow. So so it was a fantastic leap forward in terms of how much they did in the field of education. Establish the curriculum was being written. Teacher training schools were established. I mean, when I say this, I should say they will be gone because, you know, it was only it's a small drop in the bucket.

    Yeah. I mean, you know, all of these schools added together wouldn't make, the enrollment ratio even 5% of the school age population were not in school. A very small percentage of the school age children of Ethiopia were in school. But at least a a start to start be a start, it was a good start. Yeah.

    It was a seed. It was a good seed, and it was multifaceted. Teacher training, technical, vocational, commercial, advising the curriculum, writing the textbooks, hiring teachers, all of those things simultaneously with virtually nothing in the government's treasury. Wow. Yeah.

    That's the emperor started with borrowed money from the English of £3,000,000 and that's how the government was reestablished in 1941. But that's a topic, worse Okay. Session by itself. Wonderful. Okay.

    Okay. Okay. Thank you very much, and, good night. And, we'll talk again soon. Okay.

    Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye bye.

3. Tafari Makonnen School , before and after 1945

Notes

Tafari Makonnen School (TMS), photo  taken by MW when visiting Addis Ababa in 2010

  • French Canadian Jesuits

  • Boarding school life

  • Visits to the school by the emperor

  • Happy memories

  • Alright. We're back today. It's, January 10, 2010. This is episode 3. And, today, we're continuing, I guess, thoughts about, and, and, what, in secondary education, you think, up until maybe college and stop before we get to college?

    That's right. It's about right. Sounds good. And and also and also we should you know, in case somebody's listening to this later chronologically, there may be a pause our weekly, conversations because dad is going to Ethiopia, this week. Right?

    So Yeah. And when are you coming back? Do you know do do you have your ticket back? It's tentatively on the 3rd February. Wow.

    You can be gone all month. Almost. 3 weeks. You might have to find a Skype connection back home. I don't know.

    I think you can. Yeah. Alright. Well, okay. Well, well, let's go ahead and and get started.

    I think when we when, we were talking last time, you said, you know, you were talking about how Typhoon Quinones School changed before, and after 1945 when, when it reopened. And he said we'll pick that up later. So, please go ahead. Okay. Yeah.

    At the last in the last session, I indicated that, and I were admitted to Tafari McConnell School, towards the end of 43 42 or early 43. That means really less than 2 years after the empress returned from exile because he he returned in 1941, May 5th. So you, one has to remember that this was still in the middle of World War 2. Mhmm. I mean, the worst, as you know, was from 39 to 45, and we're not talking about 40 to 43.

    So right? Yeah. Yeah. In the middle of the war. Yeah.

    So parts of the country of part of the Ethiopia was still occupied by the British who who had helped get rid of the Italians, but they stayed on. And the Ogden area was was British. Under the pretext that they needed that part of the Ethiopia as part of the war effort. Mhmm. Ethiopia is now part of the Western Alliance.

    So so all good, it was there. The country was just starting. The treasury was empty. The emperor had to actually get a loan of a few £1,000,000 from the British to get the government started. There was a because of the British had helped, drive out the Italians, they had an unlimited access to the government.

    In fact, I mean, they had a very the the there were strong political British political pressure on on on on the government. Wow. At one stage when the shortly up What's what's that? Nothing. Go ahead.

    It's the dog. Shortly after the emperor returned in a way, he he named his first cabinet in 1941. And the without consulting the British, and the British took it that, expressed great displeasure that he should have consulted with them Wow. Before they appointed his, his cabinet. And the British advisers were through in in verse verse on every part of the government.

    They were in the they were high court was fully stopped by the British, the army, foreign of office, education. So it was British in in virtually every every aspect of the government. In fact, now people speak of it that Ethiopia was almost, British to protect us. Protectorate. Yeah.

    Yeah. Well, at the time, they had no thoughts about giving their colonies up. Right? I mean, you know, this is Exactly. You know, before that, it was completely natural that they should go from one colony to another.

    Yeah. I mean, reading the now, it it was very clear that there was a difference in the outlook of the foreign office and the and and the war office. The the the military. Mhmm. The military wanted, as you said, to keep Ethiopia on the side of the British.

    And they were not very keen to give up, their, authority over the emperor. Yeah. You know, while the the foreign office was a little bit more, understanding. Yeah. Interesting.

    And in fact, the British influence would not have wind, would not have they would not have been, all that free if he had if you if you told him for the intervention of, president Roosevelt. The emperor, met secretly. He he Roosevelt sent a a plane to Ethiopia, and the the emperor flew secretly from Addis to the, Eastern Mediterranean to meet with the, with the with the Roswell towards returning from the Yalta conference. Wow. I didn't know that.

    Yeah. And they met on a on a on a ship, on a warship. And, that was when the, Americans started to help the, diminish the British influence. So the emperor was able to get, some help from the Americans, so the British will not be all that, influential. Anyway, that's, just just a Was it was there much of a British influence before the war?

    No. If anything, the British the French were more more influential. French was spoken by the elites in Italy in the country. Not so much English. It was a post a post war phenomenon in Ethiopia on the whole.

    Oh, yeah. And short lived? Yeah. Short lived. Yeah.

    Yeah. I know that. So how does this affect the school? Well, the schools, are the like, if you took the Farrah McConnell School, I mean, the when I we, Kiefer and I, entered the school in 1942, 43, the director was a British, mister Postgate. Yes.

    When he was replaced, he was replaced by a British guy, another British from the British Council, a a gentleman called Steven Wright. Mhmm. So the the British were all over. Okay. On account of all these uncertainties, you can you can understand why it's a very important news at the beginning, you know, when we first entered, not not properly organized.

    I mean, it was not properly managed. I mean, its kids age varied from 7 to 20. As I said, the grades went from grade 1 to 36. Last 1. 36.

    Exactly. And the teachers were all kinds of people whoever was available, Greeks, Armenians, Egyptians, and Ethiopian priests from the church. Wow. And and very few Ethiopian educated because a good many of the educated Ethiopians had been, annihilated in the course of the The war. Actually.

    Yeah. But all this changed gradually. But in 1945, it was really more a more abrupt change. And this is when the French when the emperor invited the French Canadian Jesuits. Mhmm.

    Jesuits, Catholics to administer the Tafarikokunen School. Now this was a very unusual choice, and many people speculate to know how come the the emperor chose the the Canadian Jesuits, the Catholics. I mean, when you take into account that in 16/24, the Catholics, Catholic, not only a Catholic, but the Genworth group had managed to, get to convert the emperor, Emperor Susunios, into Catholicism. Yeah. And, and civil war arose as a result of that.

    There was a civil war in the country. And, it was a peace came only when the emperor abdicated or or when he was deposed. I don't know whether he was deposed or abdicated, but anyway Yeah. When he was repressed by his son, Fasilides. Yeah.

    Facilides, the the one who has all those The castles. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. That was that, Susunios who was who was Catholic, who who was convert was the father of Vasilius.

    I don't know that. Yeah. So in view of all of the murky history of the Jesuits, how come the emperor, selected the Jesuits? Now it's it's very hard to pinpoint the exact reason, but there are all kinds of speculations. I can mention some of them.

    One is that the emperor was himself educated by the Catholic, missionaries in in in in Harar when he was a young Yeah. By by the Monsignor Joruso. He was a capuchin bishop of Harar. And his immediate teacher was another catholic an Ethiopian catholic abba samuel so maybe the Catholic influence was there, from the beginning. Also, what choice did he have?

    I mean, how many other large organizations are willing to go to Africa and and work, you know, selflessly to educate. Exactly. Especially at that time because, you know, still the they were recovering from the war. The war has just ended in 1940 5. Yes.

    Yeah. And even the emperor wouldn't have entrusted the the wouldn't have welcomed the British or the French. So very few left, as you said. You know? Mhmm.

    The Italians were, of course, an end starter. Yeah. Yeah. They have just been thrown out of the country. Yeah.

    So, anyway and and also the, Canadians were a little bit, I mean, you know, had the advantage of not having been a colonial power. Mhmm. And they were also bilingual. So all of this must have helped her. And it all also said that when the emperor was traveling to, was on his way to England as as an exile Yeah.

    In 1936, he had gone through the holy land, and it was it is said that he visited the school in the holy land in in in what is now Israel. There was no Israel at that time, of course. He must have he visited a a Jesuit school and was very impressed by how well it was organized, how well, it was, you know, the because there was discipline, and the students were, you know, well educated. So he was very impressed by the by the way they just responded at school. And that probably also is another factor why he invited the justice.

    But in in any event, for all of these reasons and many others that we don't know, the justice were invited. And first, when they first came, they thought, the invitation was for them to establish a school from the scratch. Mhmm. But but the emperor had already figured out how he wanted to use them. He wanted them to administer an existing school, Tafari Mokono School, the school that that he himself founded in 1924 when he was a regent.

    But they but he had to be very careful about the church, the Ethiopian Ethiopian Orthodox Church. So they they had to sign to the 1st group of Catholics, the judges that arrived. They had to sign a statement saying that they will not teach religion. Mhmm. That they will not they will not get involved in any cultural, courses like civics or or or or languages.

    Also, they were told not to wear clerical, gowns. They are they were just wore just civilian clothing, attire. Also, they were not called father. They were all just mister. That's right.

    Because that this reminds me, you know, in Saint Joseph was a Jesuit school, and I don't think I knew that till after I left. Phil, I don't think there were Jesuits there. There was a it was a Catholic order, another Catholic order, but not Jesuits. I don't know if maybe it's not in parallel then. I mean but so so these people accepted all these restrictions?

    Yes. In exchange for what? I mean, you know, if they're, you know, if they're missionaries, they didn't get to be missionaries. Well, hope they were hoping perhaps they're not, gradually, they will be given more, leeway in terms of teaching the religion or, you know, the the justice order is a highly militaristic order. The head of the order is called a general.

    Wow. So so, you know, anyway, for whatever the motives they had, but it had to go all the way to the pope, and the pope, had to accept the invitation of the emperor. Now this is all now recorded, but in a small booklet by the former Joseph's father that were at the school. The Farimakuren School. Uh-huh.

    Yeah. So they came and reorganized the school from top to bottom. I mean, first of all, it became a fully primary school from grade 1 to grade grade 6. Mhmm. They managed to get good teachers.

    Some from, Eastern Europe who had just been, whose whose country had been taken over by the communist. Also displaced people who who had no country to go to. So the emperor had given refugee to some of them, Poles and Czechs and Romanians, and what have you. Some of those came to teach at the school. And, the the the the the first the first director of the school, father Matt, Lucia Matt, became very close to the emperor.

    He had an easy access to the to the emperor. Mhmm. But he was virtually the emperor's, education adviser, the fact educational adviser. So he had a free hand to organize the school and do whatever he felt was there, I think, at the time. So how how were their results?

    I mean, were were were, the emperor was pleased? Yes. He was pleased. He he he used to come regularly to the school to visit to to visit, And, he he the emperor spoke good French, as you know. So I have very clear memories of the emperor and, and father Matt talking, in the in French.

    We didn't know what they were talking about because I don't know French. But, yeah, they went along very well. In fact, it was expected that the father Matt would also be given the responsibility to organize the university college when it's started in 1950. But, and, you know, and and it did happen after getting organized and setting it up properly. Father Matt or mister Matt was, invited to start the college.

    Wow. The university college. So some of the Jesuits from Tafarik Mokonnen went to the college, and others were invited came from Canada. And they were also responsible for getting the university college, my alma mater, off the ground in 1950. That's amazing how few people had such a huge impact.

    I mean, so Right. Right. Just one person organized a secondary and the thing in college. Actually, The first 3 Jesuits who came were of, as I said, first, Lucille Matt, the director. Leo Ziffel, he was the assistant principal.

    And Guillaume Bela. Guillaume means William in French. Guillaume Bela. He was a kind of a dean of students, this in charge of discipline. So so to see.

    Matt was virtually I mean, you know, in retrospect, he was kind of the foreign minister of the school. I mean, he was in charge of contacts with the with the minister of educations, contact with the palace, contact with the other schools and and and the government agencies. So, he concentrated on the ex and and contact with European and Western, sources of money and and materials and school supplies and that kind of thing. So is this a like a college president, basically? Yeah.

    Yeah. Yep. You're sort of the ambassador and the fundraiser and Exactly. Exactly. Wow.

    It's Leo Ziffel was the was the school master. He was a strict disciplinarian, but also very, fair. I mean, if you did your work well and if you kept yourself out of trouble, he doesn't bother you, but he knew when to intervene. And, he was I mean, you there is a one of your questions, this tentatively, outline that you gave me is, my favorite teacher. He's one of those I remember most vividly and for whom I have have very, very great respect is Leo Ziffel.

    The the the headmaster was also a teacher? Liam, as if he didn't teach really. He was in charge of, the school. He was he was the principal, so to say, you know, while, Matt was, as I said, foreign affairs city, he was the roommate. He was in charge of the curriculum.

    He was in charge of the teachers. He was in charge of the students. He was in charge of the dormitories. He was in charge of the because this this was a boarding school of of of the the, of the cafeteria. Everything having to do with the school, You're the chief operating officer.

    Okay. Yeah. But so these guys so were the teachers Jesuits or the teachers were people they hired? Yeah. Only few Jesuits.

    I mean, there maybe in total, there would be 6, 7, at most 10. Wow. So they hire they hire the others. As I said, these, displaced persons from Eastern Europe as well as lay, teachers from wherever they can find them. But the but the authority responsibility and the administration was in their firm grip.

    And because, Lucian Mauth was close to the emperor, I mean, you know, nobody would imagine of doing anything that they didn't agree with. Yeah. That'd be so sad. It's amazing. So these guy I mean, I don't think I appreciated these people as much.

    I mean, they're a small, potent it looks like the bullshit. Like, they're with the with the control you know, they they wag the whole dog. Oh, Ziffer was, I mean, the disciplinarian. I mean, he was he inculcated in our minds the value of self discipline, the value of punctuality, and the value of, of work ethics, self discipline, I think I mentioned. And I mean, like, when we go to the dining room, we had to line up at outside in the same order as we would be sitting in in the cafeteria.

    So and he had, how do you call it? A chart of who sat where. I mean, he had a drawing of so he knew exactly who sits where. And you would just go around and see if he sees an empty place, you know exactly who was absent. So I think you're not gonna miss a meal.

    Right? So No. And if you are 1 minute late or half a minute late I mean, if you'd if you don't if you're if you're in the wrong line as you fall as you enter into the to the dining room, then, you know, you cannot sit where, you're supposed to sit. So therefore, you will miss your mail. And in a boarding school, if you miss, 30 seconds or 1 minute, you know, I mean, you you'd be able to go without the mail.

    Yeah. There's no cafe there's no, you you can't go to the, local store. No. No. There's no store.

    We were boring. We were not allowed to leave the campus, period. Oh my god. We were allowed to leave the campus only once. I think it was 2, maybe even 3 weeks.

    And and and that and and that only for half a day, maybe one day at most. So they had complete control over you. I mean, it's that's that's unimaginable. I mean, in this you have to I mean, now the parents you know, the the the teachers are afraid of the parents. No.

    None of those. Yeah. I mean, I we're digressing, but, I mean, when I was in school in the school of education and they were talking about, you know, all this disorder in school, school, how do you call it? Discipline. Yeah.

    School discipline. I didn't understand what they meant because, you know, we we took it for granted that we're well disciplined. We would say yes. We've got to I mean, yes. Yeah.

    You you want, like, 30 seconds. I mean, you gotta be Yeah. Yeah. Juvenile delinquency was something that that was very foreign to our mind when when we and they all they talk to us about juvenile delinquency in American schools and in the school of education. Yeah.

    That was a foreign concern. But not only that too. I mean, you know, I don't know if they ever said this to you, but if if you're ever threatened, that you had to, you know, be kicked out, there's no place to go. Exactly. There is no plan b.

    No. There is no plan b. You are either, at the farm. You know? That's it.

    Yeah. And, also, I mean, you your parents would be the first one to Yeah. Be on the side of the teachers. Oh, they would kill you. Yeah.

    I know. You don't you have nowhere to go. So, I mean, you will you will be, you know so this was so you went from what to what? Because I mean, you did the you did the church school. Right?

    So what grade or grade equivalent did you enter to have your recording? Okay. Well, the school was reorganized. I was, placed in grade 2 grade 2. So this is the beginning.

    Yeah. Beginning. So how to work how you're aware to, at that time, it was only up to grade 6 because it was only primary school. But all in 1948, they got a special permission from the emperor to get a secondary section added to the Tafari Mokonnen. I should have perhaps said, a little earlier.

    After Tafari Mokonnen was established reopened, 2 other schools were started. 2 secondary schools. Mhmm. 1 one was, the highest last first secondary school in Kotabe Kotabe on the road to Asmara, about 20 kilometers outside the city. And another school, Jarawinget School in Gulale.

    I don't remember. So those two schools were the only secondary schools in the country in the mid and late forties. Wow. Yeah. And Tafarir Mokonnen later on, the the the secondary section of Tafarir Mokonnen became the third secondary, level institution, in 19.

    I think it's they started about 19, 48, as I said, the secondary section. But so you would have been in 6th 8th grade. No? Or no? So that's so you weren't there?

    Is that 2. Grade 2. Yeah. And then and then, in 19, 51, I think it is. But by then, I had left Harry Mocannon.

    Yeah. In 1951, the government, system of education was reorganized too so that it was not a primary education became 1 to 8 instead of 1 to 6. Okay. Yeah. In any event, when I was in school, it was 1 to 6, so I entered grade 2.

    But there was a lot of skipping of of grades. Like, I finished the entire primary elementary and secondary schools, between 19 43 and 1951. Wow. So that's how much eighties? 8 to make 12?

    How did you do that? What the because as I said, you know, the first of all, you you would allow to skip if you did well in your school. You you skip 1 grade. Yeah. I must I I skipped grade 5.

    I I know. And then from grade 6, we went straight to grade 9. That was good. Because the 7 and 8, you know, reserved for those who would go to vocational schools. It it was something that was added only when, the ministry reorganize the school system in 19 in 1951.

    At the at the time we were there, I was there. 7:8 was kind of a a holding place because of because there are overage kids, you know, and and, they didn't know what to do with them. They can't just kick them out. To have to find a place to for them to go to either, the police academy or or the air force or the technical school. So they would be they would put them in grade 7 and 8, and then they will look for possibilities of where to place them.

    So from 6, 7 and 8 was I was too young, you know, to be in that category. So from 6, we went to grade 9. They call it form 1, form 2, form 3, but the equivalent of grade 9. And then the second from 9, I think I skipped another grade. Wow.

    So Oh, yeah. So all said, I took the school living certificate examination, the which came from London at that time. You know, we all start for the London School examinations in 19, 51. How old how old are you? Do you remember?

    Yes. I remember. 1951, I would I would have been 17. Wow. So you were so in America, that was equivalent to 12th grade, 17, 18.

    Yeah. Right? So you ended up kind of equivalent for your age group, but Yeah. You started later. Right?

    I mean or you started, you know, because you were out. You were at the preschool for a while. That's not no. I started when I was about 9. You which would have been 3rd grade or yeah.

    Exactly. I'm 4th grade here. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then but then it's funny.

    You you you didn't start, I guess yeah. Then within 2 years, you were catching up. Right? So they moved you forward. Exactly.

    But even I remember, I mean, when I was in Saint Joseph, there was a lot of talk about, skipping grades. I mean, you know, it's you come here and, you know, skipping grades is a big deal. You know, you they, you know, you they don't like to do that here. No. I know.

    Because everybody moves with this age group. Yeah. There there there is no such thing as an age group because, as I said, the school had any, kids between 17 7 20 years old. Yeah. So it's all mixed up to start with.

    Yeah. But but, of course, over the years, they have been weeding it. The Jesuits have have been weeding them out. Yeah. And, by the time I completed, it was more or less according to Age group.

    Yeah. More or yeah. According to age group. Yeah. More or less, but not quite completely.

    So what other memories do you have of the teachers? I mean, it sounds I mean, I it's hard to imagine boarding school if you've never been in it. Right? I mean, I've I I've never been in it. We've we've seen movies, you know, in books and such, but it's I mean, it's really hard to imagine.

    I mean, what it was all boys. Right? Yes. It was absolutely. And it's and it's small?

    Yes. About 450, maximum 500 borders. Another about the same amount maybe a little more these schools Tafarimokonden over the years became by the time I left the school, it was the la one of the largest schools in the country. It had over a 1000 enrollment. Wow.

    A little less than half boarding in the in the balance, this school, 45% to 55%, something like that. Mhmm. Now you're asking me what was, what what what I thought of the school. Well, you know, I have a very, very fond memory of the school. I mean, that's a school that's a place where I made, lifetime friends Mhmm.

    Boarding school. I mean, there's some of the my closest friends even now. I mean, a good many of them are dying off and and so forth. Or but, you know, we met we met there. And at that time, there was no such thing as, I mean, you know, no nobody paid attention to ethnicity.

    I mean Yeah. We're all boarding, so my next neighbor would have be would have come from, Gamugofa or Tigray or and, you know, but we were all boarding. We're all school. And, I mean, some of my best memories of, my childhood are from school. We had a big band, school band with drums and and and and we drilled every time we had in between classes.

    You know? Mhmm. There was drilling there, and, there was we were we went to Christmas celebrations at the palace. The emperor would hand out, gifts of sweaters and orange and Yeah. And cake to virtually all kids.

    At the time, he could do it himself, but, eventually, you know, there there are too many. So, he did it for doctor Farimu Conan and his wife. The empress did it for in school. But later on, the royal family, you know, his, the other members of the royal family also handed out these, sweaters. And so the sweaters were of different colors.

    I mean, like, was yellow, was red and empress manon was green. This is that the Ethiopian flag. And later on, when we get and came, what what what what they do have their own colors. I mean Who are the peep do you remember the names? Like, I'm sure you do.

    Who are the people? I I must know some of them. Right? Like, you say the people you stayed friends with. Like like, who's from Teferi Mokonnen?

    At least of the people I know. Oh, let's see. Professor Asrat, you remember? Asafas, a guy whom you know, all too many to mention. I mean, I all the friends I have had, when you were growing up were either from the Faroe Mohammed or the or or or university college.

    Yeah. Yeah. And and and they all, you know, the product of just education. I think I think also the boarding school. I mean, I think, you know, we make friends in college, but you live with them.

    You know, my friends from high school are not as I mean, the few I have were close, but they disappear. You know, people go their own ways. But I guess if you live with them, you know, that's, very intimate. Well, there was only one city, Addis Ababa, and and, you know, government services, government or the The employer. Employer.

    Yeah. Well, we we we, you know, we we bump into each other virtually every day, you know, either in meetings or weddings or luxo. I mean, yeah. And when we get we get married, we were each other's, best man, and, no, we it was a life problem. But one thing I want to underscore, about this period was it it was a period of, great nationalism in in Ethiopia because this was immediately after, the war.

    We we were, for all practical purposes, the 1st generation or post war generation of, Ethiopian students, you know, after after that one. And, I mean, there was an air of, nationalism that just just permeating our entire life. Well If everyone if anyone ask you what would you like to do when you you finish school? The first answer, virtually, the only answer is I want to serve my country. Wow.

    Service service. Mhmm. Love the country. We would would raise flags in the morning and and in the afternoon. I mean, the the radios, the newspapers, and every the mass media was all about, unity and independence.

    I mean, you know, and one good thing also that, as part of our education is that the teachers, even the Jesuits and all virtually all of the teachers made sure that we were not anti Italians in spite of the fact that Italian had colonized our I mean, occupied our country, killed our father I mean, our parents and so on. They wanted us to make clear that Italians are Christians and that our enemies are we're the fascists, not the Italians. Wow. That's pretty profound. I mean, it's and they're asking for reconciliation.

    They you know, and nobody even nobody even asked them to ask for reconciliation. Alright? It was just the right thing to do. The first speech that the emperor gave when he returned from exile was leave the Italians alone. Really?

    Yeah. It it is inscribed in the big monument, the, liberation, monument in Arathkilo. After all the slaughter? I mean, that's incredible. Yes.

    I mean, they stayed on as mechanics. They were intermarried. You know, the Italian fight the soldiers that came to Ethiopia was from the southern Italian region Yeah. Calabria. They were country folks.

    They were just recruited by the fascists and sent to to Ethiopia. So they were not educated. They didn't have much skill. So they ended they remained in the country as tech tech technicians. They they will demand the garages, the car garages.

    I understand. The electricity was Italian, the, the electric company. So they they were the skilled laborers that were left. And and If you think about it, that's really amazing. I mean, just in just from that one capsule.

    I mean, to think you would never think of it that way. Right? But that's a you know, at this point, that's a first world country immigrant to a third world. Right? So they're thinking there's a better opportunity for me here than back home in the southern Italy.

    Yeah. I mean, later on, I know of many cases of Italians who are who did who refused to go back to, Italy. Even, in the earlier periods when the British were there, they wanted them to return back to Italy, but they they refused. A good man of them refused. They didn't have any place to go to.

    They've been there a long time too. Yeah. So, now they, So what what what what was the I mean, you said we were the first post war generation. How much Yeah. How much I mean, you know, Ethiopia was a nation state before and, you know, and after the war.

    Yeah. How how, you know, what was the change? Is it or another way to ask it is, how much more modern did you feel? Like, is there because, I mean, a lot of things happen. Right?

    I mean, they know the whole western you know, the World War 2, you know, came, you know, burning through the country. Right? I mean, so what was different, I guess, is what I'm asking. Well, for I mean, you know, I I don't know. I don't know how the school I mean, there are it's very hard to compare the pre and post because it's a different generation.

    It was a quite a sharp a sharp Yeah. Change. Yeah. Yeah. But Also also people died.

    I mean, I'm just Yeah. I just wondered. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for one thing, the government was more centralized.

    Mhmm. There were ministries of, for everything. I mean, ministry of education, ministry of agriculture, health, everything. Whereas in the old days, I mean, each province was more or less, autonomous. And they had a or an and he was in charge of the.

    That's that's kind of my point. I mean, sort of the the feudal the feudal architecture was destroyed by the Italians. I mean, that that wasn't their goal, but that's sort of what happened. Right? Exact yeah.

    Yeah. Well, it this was started even before the war. He he he was trying. Yeah. He was trying.

    The emperor one of the emperor's major innovations was to centralize the government, you know. And professionalize it. But I mean, but the Yeah. The Italians sort of torched it too. I mean, you know Yeah.

    Yeah. He actually that that that helped tremendously. I mean, some of the feudal lords or who are, who are retarding progress for the emperor who, you know, they they died or they they collaborated with the Italians. So they were persona non grata kind of thing. So he had a free hand after the war to do whatever he wanted.

    I mean, this is almost got sent for him in a way. Yeah. I mean, it's How about how about media? I mean, was that a big factor? I mean, you know, the radio and things like that.

    I mean, how much does that change the conversation or sort of the the the the mood? It's it's very it's I don't know. You you have a good point there. I mean, of course, radio I mean, people didn't have radios. Not too many people had radios.

    The where we went to hear listen to radio or in in certain public places, you know, they had these large megaphones in Atarath Kilo, in, and in in, in Piazza, and in the Saint George's Cathedral. So even when we're in college no. Not college. Yeah. Even in college, you know, people would just go there around 6 o'clock in the evenings or after during lunch hour and listen to the radios, on on these public squares.

    Mhmm. It is only gradually that people started to buy radio sets. And later on, of course, these transistor radios came in, but then then changed the entire, mass media situation in the country and and all over the world before that matter. Yeah. But, you're right.

    The newspapers and, that helped, also this nationalism that I was talking about at the beginning. You know? Yeah. It has to be attended. It has to be, nurtured.

    I mean, it doesn't just happen on its own. Yeah. One thing I want to add, you know, about the school is how competitive the school was. I mean, for instance, in every grade at the end of the year in a there will be of course year end examinations And in the assembly hall, they would read, Martha or Ziffel. Ziffel, the assistant director, Dio Ziffel, would read the rank school class ranks for every grade.

    Grade Oh my god. Grade 1, number 1st, so and so, 2nd, so and so, 3rd, so and so. If there is a, the same grade, then the 3rd, so and so and so and so, you know, if there are 2 of them. Yeah. And then all the way down to the last guy.

    And this is for every single grade. Oh my god. This would take hours. Yeah. Do you know?

    Sometimes, I think they would do it, over a you know? Well, let's see. Yeah. It would take maybe 3, 4 hours. I don't know.

    Yeah. Yeah. We have, a thousand people. Yeah. Yeah.

    That would be the that's 1. Then secondly, in every grade, there would be, special little certificates, diploma, I mean, the little yeah. Diplomas, I mean, like, what your daughter got when she went into the, she became, in the dean's no. No. No.

    No. Yeah. Something a little bit a little sheet of a little card, would be given for those who were first in a particular subject. So take great great, grade 3 for instance. Grade 3, so and so top in the heart 1st in Amharic.

    1st, so and so first in English. So and so first in in science. And and every single subject like that. His name was me publicly named, and he would get a little a little, card, as I said, who's so so and so was first in his grade and in the year, you know, that would indicate his name, his grade, the subject, and the year. And sometimes if the good students would collect, you know, there could be, 1 car 1 kid could gather as many as 6 or 7 cars because if he's first in English and Arabic and mathematics and so on and so on.

    Yeah. So the good students, I shouldn't say this, but I I used to collect quite a few of these. Oh, really? Yeah. In geography and, and English and, Arabic, except I I don't remember about arithmetic, but I had quite a few of those cards.

    And I had them stored in at home for a long time. I think they got lost over the years. Yeah. But it it shows how competitive it was. Was that I mean, is that within the culture?

    Was that That that what what that's that's foreign, isn't it? I mean, I I don't is that sort of this egalitarian? And I mean, it's not very Ethiopian in a sense, I guess. No. No.

    It's just part of the Jesuit, system. Yeah. The Jesuits, in in I think in their schools, everywhere, they do that. It's all the same in the in sports. Each class will have a team, soccer team.

    Yeah. Like, grade 8 or 6. Grade 6 will have, 1st, team, 2nd team, and 13 depending on the skill. So those who are very good in, good in the they would be in the first team. So those who are intermediate, so and so would be in the 2nd team.

    And and then there will be intra class, competitions throughout the year. Nonstop. Nonstop. What did the what did the what did the parents think about all this? Do you remember this?

    You were going I mean, in the one break you got for 2 months. I mean, do do you go home with your report card certificates, or do do they do they come back and tell you you should try harder? I mean, what what was the interaction? I mean, you know, it was a source of pride for, most parents. But, it's I mean, those parents didn't go to the same kind of school, so it's very hard for them to Mhmm.

    Give give you advice or to guide you or to tell you, you know, you instead of this, do that. I mean but, you know, they were they they were very supportive, very supportive, and it was a source of pride for their parents to for their kids to to be on this list. Yeah. Very few of them came to school. I mean, I I don't remember my mother or any of my relatives coming to visit me at school.

    It's it's me who would go after, 3 weeks or whatever we had the day off or a lot to leave the campus. Would go and visit them. But the bottom line is from grade 2 to the end of university university college, undergraduate college, I was boarding and not living at home. Yeah. Now what You is that is it is there a summer vacation?

    What about is it or is it Thomas? Yes. No. Mhmm. There is a summer vacation, and that was another good thing about the Farimakhon School.

    Those who had parents in the city would be allowed to go home. Yeah. Those who came from the provinces would be given some money to, go on on buses or the train to wherever they came from. Yeah. Those who didn't have anywhere to go to really, I mean, their parents may not be of, in a position to, you know, entertain them or to have them there.

    And the kids who didn't want to go there, they would be allowed to stay be at on the campus. Oh, really? Then the school would organize all kinds of indoor games. All kinds of indoor games. I can't I can't remember them, but some of the things that they had in America, you know, monopoly and this and that.

    I don't remember all those names. As well as the soccer games. But the soccer games were less in the summer because it was rainy. But not the rest of it, you know, the but and and they would have elections, and they would have their their own, prefects and so forth. So it was a city.

    They would teach them how to govern themselves. You know, there were some someone in charge of the, recreation activities, someone in charge of the, extracurricular activities. And so and in fact, it was a pleasure for us to sneak in, you know, who would come from home and then try to see what they were doing because they were they were well taken care of for. Fun. Yeah.

    It looks sounds like a lord of Yeah. Lots of fun there. Listen. It sounds like the lord of the flies. You know, like, the kids set up their own world.

    Exactly. Now what about that? What about Gashkafla? I mean, you know, did you guys see each other a lot? Were you guys close during this time?

    I mean, do you what what was I mean, you're you're you're the only brothers. Right? I mean, this it's just you too. Right? Yeah.

    We were one grade apart. Mhmm. When I was in grade 2, it would be in grade 1. When I was in grade 4, it would be in grade 3. 1 year apart throughout our, career.

    Mhmm. Yeah. So did you guys help each other with homework? I mean, what, what was the interaction? We were close, really.

    You know? One grade was not all that much. Yeah. But he had his own circle of friends. I had my own circle of friends, but they're all but the the 2 circles kind of, they're not a Michelin exclusive, you know.

    There there is all overlapping membership of the 2 groups. Yeah. So so, they are we are close. We are quite close, actually, as brothers go. Did you guys fight?

    I mean, were you guys competitive? I mean, what do you know, brother brothers have all kinds of different relationships. Uh-huh. But we're in different classes, so there was no academic competition to speak of. He has he has to compete with his own class, and I I do it my own.

    Fighting? Not really. No. We're about the same age. I I was very quiet by myself throughout my, childhood.

    Kifrin was more outgoing. He was more outgoing. He was more he participated more in sports, both at the Farimakon and in college. I I did not. Like, for instance, in the soccer teams, I told you that each class had 3 teams.

    Yeah. I I was relegated into the last the the the the third team. That was Wow. Yeah. Right.

    Could play with probably be the intermediate. So it I mean these rankings are very interesting in another way like for instance the second team of grade 6, would play the first team of grade 3. You know what I mean? I mean, they they were that good? I mean, that's amazing.

    Because even though they're older Yeah. They may not be, soccer wise, as, adept as the ones in grade 3. That's what I'm saying. The the differential is so high. They could play 2 years above them.

    That's pretty impressive. Well, I I mentioned grade 3, but it could have been just the next grade. But but so it what I was trying to say is grade. Team 3 does not always play team 3 of another one. It could be Yeah.

    Yeah. Another, you know, a higher team or a lower team depending on the age of the kids in that school, in that grade. Was there were there other ceremonies? I mean, nowadays, there's a graduation for every grade and, you know, every time there's an honor roll, the, you know, the parents supposed to come and and Yeah. Pop.

    I mean, so what what I mean, was there other ceremonies that, you know, they were sort of official besides the reading of the, the scores? There are 2 major ones. 1, as I mentioned, a little earlier is the Christmas one where we would go in in, you remember I mentioned about our, band? We would march, you know, in an information. Every school would, march to you you like that.

    We had our own band and then an emblem. The school emblem, was a was a cow being, mixed, you know. It was it was so the the big cow So that's a that's an agricultural school motto. Look. It was So that was that was a big flag.

    That will be at the beginning, and then next to it will be the Ethiopian flag. And in in in in in in in straight disciplined, march to the Paris, other schools would come the same way, and we would receive our presents from the emperor. That was Christmas. And this is for all schools, on on the numbers. In in in Addis Ababa, I mean, it's almost like a military parade.

    Yeah. He was he was he was parading his students. In in the provinces, the, the governors did the same thing for the took the place of the emperor in their own provinces. So the governor of Goja would do the same thing for his school. You know?

    Yeah. Yeah. Marsh him through. That's amazing. Yeah.

    I mean, that you nobody would do that now. It's amazing. I mean, it's like so you guys are the most important thing there was. Yes. But that died kind I mean, it became impossible as a number of kids, grew and, it was impossible for the palace to hold all those kids.

    I mean, this kind of died, a natural death didn't last all the all the years. But the first few years, I don't know, maybe the first 7, 8, 10 years, it was like that. That was the first. And at the end of the year, or that I should have mentioned, we would again assemble in the other palace, the old palace, that the the the old Gippee. Millek.

    Which was the emperor. Yeah. Millek's Palace. Yeah. There would be given presents for for the emperor would hand out presents for the first, the second, and the third from each grade.

    Wow. Yeah. The Farimucon in grade 1, grade 2, up to grade 6, and later on up to grade 9. The same with Minnie Leek and so forth and so on. And and the the presents are usually books.

    Mhmm. Amharic books, English books. Although, there are times when I remember someone from, another from, I think, from the Wingate School being given a, a typewriter. Wow. And you're too young to carry it.

    In fact, I met his son not too long ago, and I was telling you how I remember his father, trying to carry a big time After so after 5, 6 decades later. And, that was, the end of that till the end of the year, and that would be covered in the newspapers. It would be a big affair in the radio, and sometimes they would print the names of each one of these, kids in the in in the in the newspaper. Yeah. It was a big deal.

    Yeah. So you so, I mean, this is the emperor as a human. I mean, you guys walked into his house almost. Right? I mean, that's, I mean, unimaginable.

    Yes. I don't know if you knew this, Phil, but, you know, for the, you know, the first cabinet after the war, 1941, did have a minister of education. He was a Harvard graduate. But after that, after he was transferred to something else, that nobody else became a minister of education. The emperor kept the portfolio to himself for many, many years, and he would appoint a vice minister who was the actual administrator of the educational system.

    But in terms of policy and in terms of importance and to show how much he gave importance to education. He kept the, the portfolio to himself for many, many years, and, only vice ministers, were appointed. It is, I think, the next minister of education to be appointed was much later in 19 sixties. So Wow. Yeah.

    For close to 20 years. What? Close to 20 years. Yeah. Yeah.

    He was the minister of education as well. So that shows how much he, importance he gave. Now I I think I mentioned the dorm life, how disciplined it was, how punctuality. I mean, you know, we'd start up start we'd get up at 6 o'clock in the morning. Mhmm.

    I'm gonna do wash. I mean, there was no indoor plumbing. You remember, you must remember in those days. So, there are a few tops outside. So we would go there and, you know, for the wash our faces and so forth.

    It's freezing cold. You're freezing cold. Yeah. Especially at the Faroe Makonim because we were just under the total mountains. And then 7 o'clock was breakfast.

    You have to be there on time. No breakfast, otherwise. Classes, 8. You have to be on time. Otherwise, you know, you you would be punished.

    You know, you you just capital punishment was quite widespread. Mhmm. Ziffel Ziffel had a a bet. I mean, what today, I would call it a best. You know?

    It's a it's a rubber thing that you would you would hit your palm depending how serious it was. Anything from 5 to I think the top one was 40. Oh my god. Yeah. So it's not easy task.

    Do the other kids help you? I mean, what happens if you oversleep? Do the other kids make make sure you don't get in trouble, or they just No. No. They slink out so they don't get in trouble themselves?

    No. No. There are, house prefects. They will wake you up. Okay.

    And they make sure that you leave the place and so forth and so. At night, lights are out by 9. Sometime when we grow older, in secondary school it was 10. You know? Every Sunday, we would go to church, the boarding schools.

    In fact, again, in 1947 or 48, they built a church, which is now, you know, for everybody. But in those days, it was really for the Tafari Mokkonen School and Empress Mokkonen School. Somewhere in between the the two campuses, there was this Medanial Island School that, I don't know if you remember. It is just north of the university. Yeah.

    It was made for us. So, so we'd go to church, have mass. They're also very disciplined. So what so what was the elective? What was yeah.

    What did you I mean, you know, lights on, lights off, you know, short, I mean, so, you know, I but after class, you had sports and then you're expected to eat and study. I mean so what what was flexible? Last question. Never arose to ask. Because that's the answer, isn't it?

    Can you repeat the question here? Yeah. It's just, you know, very competitive academically, sport wise, every grade, every subject, self discipline. You had to strive to serve your country. It was a post war nationalism at its height.

    The emperor knew everything. That was the atmosphere, you know, that we grew up. It was only in the domestic holiday, I think, when we went there, you know, some kind of a little leniency. Even there, you still are the Jesuits. So it's still boarding, but it was a little bit more lenient.

    We could go out of the campus. We could, because we were right in the middle of, so we we could go out of the campus, but we have to come back by a certain hour. Wow. At night, lights were out definitely by 11 by 10. No.

    11? 10 or 11. I forget. And, of course, there are a few choices of subjects. You could take 1 or the other.

    I mean, so it was we'll talk about the university college in our next session. So there is a little bit of choice and options when we get to the college. But even there, it was very limited. Nothing like the wild university study back in the air. Yeah.

    In this country. But the at Tafar and Macquinnon, you chose no subject. Right? I mean, the curriculum was set from beginning to end. Absolutely.

    Absolutely. The the curriculum, the the yes. The schedule. The schedule. Everything.

    Basically, you were just told. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Was there was there ever an issue of money?

    I mean, were there kids whose parents couldn't afford the school or, you know, where did money come in? Good question. Money was not a factor at least for the borders because, you know, we were fed free. School supplies were free. There was nothing but the only difference was clothing.

    Mhmm. For our clothing, the government issued clothing twice a year. Governor, you know, but the Jesuits are particularly, Ziffel, took it on himself, and I guess I guess he got the permission of the emperor through Matt because Matt then became a very close, hard, easy access to the emperor. So they must have consulted. What they did was they, the Jesuits differentiated the students in terms of their socioeconomic background.

    Mhmm. Those who had the means who who came from wealthier homes were not given the, clothing. Their clothes was given out to those who came they would keep them aside and and give it as an additional closing to those who don't who don't have anything, you know, who don't know family to help them. You know what I mean? Those who came from the provinces or even from those who from our Oh, so wait.

    So they so they hoarded sort of so the government supplied clothes just to the school, and then they decided who to give it to. Exactly. Like, Kefli Kefli and I, we were never given the government, issued closing. They would keep it and give it away to to somebody else. They would they wouldn't, you know, not that the one who received it wouldn't know that it was our I mean, it was just done by the by the teachers, so nobody asked me any questions.

    You know? Wow. Yeah. So who paid for the school? I mean, it was all so the government paid for everything.

    Government paid for everything. Wow. It's a huge investment. It was huge investment. I mean Yeah.

    Look. I mean, the I mean, they built, a new dormitory, new classrooms. The ones that, the emperor had inaugurated in 1920 24, Astafare Mokonno School was easily, you know, many times more in terms of facilities, physical facilities, and, how much the government spent from its own meager resources, it's unbelievable. I mean, I can look up the figures and and give some statistics if we have, the okay to revisit this subject. But, the laboratory equipment was entirely bought by the government.

    Even when we finished college, Phil, we were sent out on government scholarships. The government paid for me at Harvard entirely. Uh-huh. Even at Columbia. Even at Columbia.

    Up up to a point, you know, up to my master's degree. After that, you know, I I did my own. But, foreign assistance to education, particularly for scholarships, overseas didn't start until, oh, maybe 57, 58. You know, just, top of my head. Wow.

    Yeah. So otherwise, it was entirely financed from k to college by the government. Now it was a small system in terms of, how many of the school age kids were in school. Yeah. He's very few.

    I mean, what we know what is in education called participation, ratio, you know, like, if you take the entire school age population, 6 to 11 Yeah. How many kids in the country are sick age 6 to 11? End of that, what percentage is in school, it will be very, very small. Yeah. I mean, I think by the time I left the country, it was not more than 20, 25.

    At the beginning, obviously, it was probably 1% or even less, you know? Yeah. So it was a small school system, but whatever it was, it was entirely done by government. Well, you know, you also got the benefit. I mean, it's like the first child.

    I mean, you know, as more kids enter the system, each of them got less. Yeah. So, you guys got disproportionate benefit. I mean, not not to mention the disproportionate recognition, but, I mean Yeah. Still, I mean, you know, it was, you know, it was an amazing time, you know, to be there.

    Absolutely. I mean, exactly. You you mentioned a good point. Like, boarding was abolished. They just couldn't cope with that.

    I mean, there was no more boarding by, 1959, 60. Boarding was abolished throughout the country. Really? Yeah. Because for every boarding students, they could have 3, 4 a school students.

    You know? So the the accent now was on, creating the access expansion. Yeah. Expansion And So what happens to the provinces then? So these kids couldn't, go back.

    I mean, so so they just didn't come to the frame of equipment. I mean, it just became a day school? Yeah. And, the schools, the provinces got their own secondary schools. Yeah.

    The day schools, I mean, day schools, secondary schools and primary schools were built in virtual all all provinces. Yeah. Not many, but they didn't have to come to Addis, in other words. Yeah. Like like tech Kakali.

    Yeah. He he got all his education, elementary education in Goree. And it is only when he entered secondary school that he was transferred to Adis. Later on, they opened a secondary school. So even those who finished primary school would go to a secondary school in Gore, but, at least in his case, he came to, this for his secondary education.

    Wow. Where's Gore? Gore is in Elubabble. Elubabble. Western Ethiopia.

    Western Ethiopia. Western Ethiopia. Not far from So this is this is not the this is a tangent again, but the the network of secondary schools in the provinces was built before the sixties, I mean, with the emperor as the minister? Yes. Because that's a huge administrative undertaking.

    I mean, you know, that's Yes. For emperor to do that. I mean, I don't know for anybody to do that much as, you know, the emperor who has, of course, the full, you know, portfolio, right, as emperor. Right? He's commander in chief and everything.

    I mean Yeah. I mean, although he he held the portfolio, as I said, he had, people believe the bomb, obviously. Yeah. The vice minister was in charge of the school system, really, for all practical purposes. And then there will be departments, you know, teacher training, curriculum, probably elementary, secondary, whatever.

    You know? Yeah. So he didn't, have day to day. But in terms of policy, there was a, he he And and and resource allocation in the end. I mean, that's what you know?

    Yeah. He he's his own audience. Yeah. So so the fact that Conan expanded while you were there because it when you said the dates earlier, it didn't make sense to me that you were there when they added the secondary. So you were there as they added the secondary portion?

    Yes. Yes. I was in the second, group. So could secondary school was added, in, I think, 48, I said. Yeah.

    I think I entered secondary school in 49. Or 48 at the at the end of 48, beginning of 49 and finished by 51. So I stayed in secondary school only two and a half years. Yeah. Just just in time to start the university college.

    Right? You're the second you're the second class there also. Right? The 2nd class there as well. Yeah.

    You might have missed it if you got you had it too fast. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. So you've actually I mean, in the as a secondary school student or, I don't know, primary school student, do you met the emperor?

    Like, did you did you do you shake his hand or do you touch him, or do you stand next to him? What happens? Well, that's a good question too. He would come to school to visit many times a year. At the Farimucon, he would come on average once a month.

    And, I mean, it was announced? I mean, tomorrow, the emperor is visiting? Or just show up? He would show up, in the door no. In the, cafeteria usually.

    He would In the cafeteria of all places? I mean, the emperor would work here. He would also visit school, classes. But I was going to give you the example in the cafeteria. He would come with food for us.

    He would come with fruits, for instance. Grapes or oranges or fish. Something that was different that we interact on. And that was a big deal. You know?

    He would go around and and talk to students and and and he would remember. And I mean, if he talked to you today and he comes back, a month later, and, you would remember what you told him a month earlier. And you you said might have forgotten him, but he would remember. He has a fantastic memory. Now I see it in books that, you know, how people, remember, mentioned that how what what fantastic memory he had, but now I believe it.

    He would also come to visit us classrooms, go from one class to another. He would visit us. He would visit during sport events. Sport was big thing in the Jezetu world. He would come.

    We had shows, cultural shows, theaters, place. He would come there and become the, He's he's like the doting parent. I mean, he brings the birthday cake and, and then he comes to the place. I mean Yes. Yes.

    Yes. What would he wear? Usually, civilian clothes. You mean, like, a suit? Yes.

    Yes. A suit and an and a a a top. I mean, how do you call it? A hat? A clock

    A clock? Clock? Is that what you call it? Yeah. A clock.

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    And you'd come it was very simple. So I mean, the only the only the only pictures I ever see was, like, military with a hat and the and the and the and the full regalia. Yeah. Yeah. He would come to the cafeteria and sit down in a chair, or would he stand No.

    No. No. He would go around, and he would go you just go, will will will Matt will be next to him? That would that would the Matt will get all his request approved during this visit. I see.

    You see what somehow just said this happened. That's why, you know, and then they would okay. No. He would go from one row to another row, and then he would finish it. You know?

    And we would we would yeah. Were you intimidated? I mean, do you remember being scared if he walked towards you? Or what what would you I mean Yes. Yes.

    Yes. We just looked down and said, and you turned out to Fra. Don't don't be afraid. You know? Yeah.

    Yeah. Yeah. And did he ever talk to you? Do you remember? Yes.

    Many times. He would ask me. Many times? Wow. Well, yeah, who he would ask me who who was my father?

    I would tell him and Yeah. That that's the first question he would ask. Later on, he stopped asking the parentage because not everybody he didn't know the parents of every kid in the school. But at the beginning, you know, he knew, particularly those of us because the the first group, as I mentioned to you, were, from parents whose. The yeah.

    Yeah. The patriots. Yeah. Who had died for the country or have been jailed or, yeah, killed by the Italians. So he he he knew many of the parents, not all, but many of them.

    Did he say anything to you about your dad? Yeah. The same thing that I told you before. He was a a patriot. He was he knew he loved his country.

    He was, He was our good servant. Wow. Yeah. That's. So so your head would swell up.

    I mean, so then he'd leave and he'd, you know, all the students would have to look up to you now. Well, he would say I mean, the next guy would be the same. His father might have a big kid in one in one of the other fields. So he he thought I wasn't anything special about that. You know?

    But, Yeah. It was a close family. It was a close family. He was like father, as you said before. Yeah.

    He or his kids. I mean, sort of his, you know, his second family. I mean, he took it very personally. Yeah. A book has just been written.

    I I I read the first draft that describes the emperor as that that, describes the emperor as as a human being. Mhmm. You know, what he did as, not as a king or emperor, but that small little thing that he did to people. You know, like one day, this is a complete aggression. But, like one day, he saw a while he was driving throughout this, he saw a donkey that was overloaded with all kinds of stuff, you know?

    Mhmm. So he stopped his car according to this book. He he bought the whole load there. I mean, he paid off the for the boat and took and got, bought the, took the, donkey and, put it in his stable with the horses. I mean, that kind of That would spread the legend, Peter, even among the donkeys.

    I mean, I mean, it's a I mean, you know, the truth is, again, it's a tangent, but the most successful leaders are the ones, you know, who remain human. I mean, you hear the stories about Ted Kennedy sending birthday cards. You know? I mean, you know, the that's, you know, the the these don't these are not separate things, you know. It's not like it's not like you're a human and a leader, you know.

    They're they're they're integral. Yeah. But this is good stuff. Okay. But, does it give you a flavor of, the primary what kind of school I attended in primary Absolutely.

    Okay. Absolutely. I mean, I wish I'd seen it. I mean, does it look anything like that now? I mean, if you is the campus still there?

    Does it look anything like you remember it? Yeah. Well, I visited it once only, but, it was during the rainy season, so there are no kids in the school. I mean, it was a it was vacation time. Mhmm.

    Of course, there are no boarding schools anymore. No boarding students. It's now coeducational. Its name has been changed. He's no longer Tafarimocanon because the dark, the military didn't like the emperor, obviously.

    They've reposed him. So they don't want to call it, the the didn't want the name to remain. So it was called in Toto School because that's secondary school or something like that. It's a different school, but, I, you know, not visiting the just walking around the campus. The guard was there, wouldn't allow me at the beginning.

    But when I explained to him that I'm a former students 50 years ago or whatever the number of years was at the time. So he he he took pity on me, and he allowed me to go, but he told me to come back to come out within a half hour or an hour or whatever. Or else. But I walked around and visited the old classrooms and the old dormitories and so forth and so on. It's it's it's a shadow of its old self.

    I mean, it's, it's gone in. I mean, the the disrepair, the windows are broken. This athletic field is, I mean, it was the rainy season, so it was full of grass and wild, you know, wild grass. And, it it wasn't well kept, well managed, the flowers. And, you know, it's as I said, it didn't remind me of the old school, but I it it brought back nostalgia of, you know, of of my old school days.

    Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so so maybe we can stop here, but let me let me let me give you a homework assignment. Okay.

    Since, since it turns out, by coincidence, you are in fact going to Ethiopia next week. Yeah. And you have a camera. Yes. I do.

    So, you know, why don't you take, you know, pick 4, 5, or 6 locations. Uh-huh. Right? I mean, and then maybe, the church you walk by to take your preschool or, you know, the gates of the university, maybe some buildings. And then, of course, we haven't even gotten to your little career yet when you came back.

    Right? Yeah. And, take some pictures what you can, and we can do a side project, you know, along with the audio interviews. We could do a a a narrated slideshow. We can take some pictures and and you can talk over them.

    We'll pick out and we'll we'll curate them and we'll have a little running, talk show. Okay. That's a good idea. I I can do that for Tafari Mokonnen School, but I don't think I can do that for the preschool field. I don't even know.

    I I can't even locate it where it is now. I mean, the whole area has changed. I mean, it was, remember it is all all eucalyptus trees and the forest. Yeah. Now it's now it's houses.

    Yeah. So it's completely houses. I don't know where it is now. Yeah. Well, yeah, at least you have a you could maybe the house in Gululele.

    I mean, I think your mom your mom's house is still there, is it, or it's not? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's still there.

    Yeah. That I can do. Yeah. You can do that, and certainly the university. I mean, you know Yeah.

    The university college is there, but it's, yeah, it's it's it's much larger and a lot more crowded, but I can take pictures of yeah. That's a good idea. And but even but then even things that you walked by, I mean, I don't know what I don't know how was your you know, you there I'm sure there's some commutes you did. I mean, you know, during college, these are the places you went to every day or every week you went here. I mean, I don't know.

    There's an either a favorite restaurant or this is the way I went home. I always walk by this store. I this is where I bought my shoes. I mean, I don't know. There must be some collection of things that, you know, that if they weren't particularly, you know, they're they're not, by themselves, you know, photogenic, but, you know, they're they're they're touchstones

    Yeah. Yeah. I can do that. That's a very good idea. Yeah.

    In fact, I I will take my camera. I hadn't thought of taking a camera, but I think it's a good idea to do that. Yeah. I'll do a demo. Yeah.

    Do a bunch. And then the other thing you may wanna do is since since there aren't a lot of digital facilities, there are really if you if you if you take the trouble. But what you might wanna do is take an extra, a memory card. I have a memory card. Yeah.

    I will talk with you. Yeah. You have a second one, you know, if you fill 1 up. Yeah. Anyway, that's all.

    Okay. Well, that's your that's the end of your homework assignment. I I having heard your secondary school performance, I have no doubt you'll complete it in flying colors. Yeah. Yeah.

    That. So the one the at the end of the secondary school Yeah. Are we still on? Yeah. Yeah.

    As I told you, we sat for the London school matriculation. The examinations came straight from London, and it is the very same exam that land that kids in London took in England took, as well as in colonial Nigeria, and Kenya, and Tanzania, and so forth. And, it didn't follow the Ethiopian curriculum. And as an example, let me tell you. I mean, the we had to write an essay in English, and the three questions I remember up to now, the the I had a choice between write, write an essay on a I mean, a choice.

    A, a busy post office, which I've never visited. A summer day at the beach. There is no there is a beach. I don't even know how the beach was. There's no summer in England anyway.

    But yeah. Cool. And the third one was a happy day at the or a or a day at the at the market. Well, okay. That was reasonable.

    That was that's the one I chose, obviously. That's the only one I could choose. And our group, my group, 1951, the one who took matriculation 1951 Yes. We we took the fur the last matriculation. The because after that, the London School of Matriculation stopped.

    And they started what they call GCE, general certificate of education. Okay. Which was supposed to be more, accommodating. You know? We're talking to account a little bit more about these situations in in, outside England.

    I mean, those schools in in Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Ghana, and so forth and so on. So that we were the first ones to take the GCE, and the last ones to take the, London matriculations. For us in Ethiopia, there was very little difference, really. Very little difference because they were both, very, very foreign. Yeah.

    But, somehow, we managed to pass those exams and Wow. It's unbelievable. We now we now start to think about it, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

    I mean, it's the I mean, that's, you know, they you know, failure was not an option. I mean, you know, that's, Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was one thing. There was a fantastic, zeal, fantastic interest, motivation to succeed.

    Yeah. Yeah. And and and this call for patriotism and nationalism, I I told you, plus the zeal that we had to to get education because we knew deep inside us that that the the only way out of poverty and out of anything and to, you know. So, between the 2, yeah. Yeah.

    And and and also expectations were high. It's not simply that, you know, you're motivated too. I mean, you are expected, to do great things. Yeah. Yeah.

    I mean yeah. Exactly. That was what, the radios everyday would say. Yeah. And it works.

    Yeah. It's beautiful. So I let's let's let's stop here. I I that reminds me of an anecdote I heard recently, which I think you'll find interesting, but we'll stop here. I'm gonna stop recording, and we'll keep picking up later.

    Okay...